Resources for Further Study:

• Stand to Reason

• Tactics

• Justin Brierley’s Why I’m Still a Christian

• Stephen Meyer debate with Peter Atkins

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The Questioning Belief podcast explores objections to Christianity through in-depth discussions with experts. Drawing from her background as a former atheist and her experience in apologetics, Dr. Kathleen Noller invites you to explore thoughtful responses to serious questions about faith. Learn more.

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Explore written reflections from Dr. Kathleen Noller and get in touch with her through her Substack, The Reformed Gadfly.

Transcript

Welcome to the Kathleen Noller Podcast brought to you by the C.S. Lewis Institute. I'm your host, Dr. Noller, former atheist turned Christian. Join us today as we interrogate Christianity together and see if we can withstand some of our toughest objections. So today, the objection we're going to discuss is that argents don't convert people. There's really no purpose in learning theology or training and debate or conversational tactics for the purpose of converting non-believers. It's the Holy Spirit who saves, not our actions or tact. So, to address this objection, we have our speaker today, Greg Koukl, is the founder and president of Stand to Reason. His teaching has been featured on Focus on Family Radio. He's been interviewed for the BBC, and he's spoken at university and college campuses in the U.S. and abroad.

He's an award-winning writer. He's the author of The Story of Reality, How the World Began, How It Ends, and Everything Important That Happens in Between. Tactics, A Game Plan for Discussing Your Christian Convictions, which we'll talk about today. Relativism, Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air, and Precious Unborn Han Persons. He received his master's in philosophy, religion, and ethics at Talbot School of Theology, graduating with high honors and his master's with honors in Christian apologetics from Simon Greenleaf University. He's an adjunct professor in the graduate program of Christian apologetics at Biola, and he hosts Dan Tereson's talk show advocating clear thinking Christianity and defending the Christian worldview. So today we'll discuss, as I mentioned, tactics, which provides a game plan for how to defend your faith and how to artfully communicate the truths of Christianity with confidence and grace. Thank you so much for being here.

Greg Koukl: Well, Kathleen, it's a real treat to be with you as well. I'm looking forward to our conversation, especially with the introduction, because that question that we're addressing, at least initially, is, I guess to be transparent, really annoying to me because it is, it’s just so false.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, there's really this temptation for Christians to think God has predestined those for salvation or for hell. Therefore, they really have no role in bringing people to faith.

Greg Koukl: It is false biblically and it's false in experience.

Kathleen Noller: There even Christians that really don't believe in the existence of free will. And so, you get pretty much the objection that I mentioned, which is that we really don't have a role. We shouldn't really train ourselves up. And it's the Holy Spirit who converts. So, what do you say to those Christians who are making that sort of assertion?

Greg Koukl: So, we are just you just added another layer to the original question that has to do with election and predestination and all kinds of other things and the whole idea of whether one has freedom of in any sense at all or that we are strictly determined.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: Okay. Now, the irony of all of this, and I have a lot to say about this, and just for the record, I'm reformed. I'm Reformed my soteriology, so I believe in a very, if you will, Calvinistic sense of divine election, but I don't hold any of those convictions that you just mentioned in virtue of my theological position.

Kathleen Noller: So am I.

Greg Koukl: Some suggest, and I think mistakenly so from the other side, the objection is, well, if you believe that, then this follows from that. And there's a sense in which they're asking the wrong questions, at least right out of the gate, most of the time people raise objections to that kind of thing they're asking the wrong questions it's the what about this what about that what about the other thing and what about evangelism what about the question is first what does the text teach you have to start with what the text teaches and if you come to conclusion of what the text teaches then all views raise questions

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: And so, then you try to solve the questions within the context of the teaching of the text. Okay.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: So, I’m kind of moving backwards a little bit ah because I want to clear the deck a little backwards from, you’re the way your question was placed.

Kathleen Noller: yes

Greg Koukl: So, if there are Christians that believe that there that determinism is strict determinism is you the way we live. Okay. Well, their beliefs are up without foundation because they're not grounded in any justification at all. They're only grounded in what they are determined to believe. I mean, keep in mind what determinism, that's dominoes falling. That's all it is. That's machine-like behavior. We all must do this thing. I do not think that's inherent in the Reformed view of salvation but I'm just saying, if you're going to argue that determinism is true, you can't argue it. Because when you argue, you're making appeal for people to make decisions on their own based on reasons, when your point of view is and this is a tactic called the taking the roof off tactic. Your point of view is nobody makes decisions based on reasons at all.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: They don't have beliefs in the sense that we think of them. They have things that happen to their brain. Because of prior circumstances, it's just dominoes falling. So, when you start arguing for determinism as if it's something you can come to believe, you're in a dead end. Well, I'm talking about strict determinism. This is a liability for materialistic atheists. Who says, yes there's nothing but the material world. It's all molecules clashing in the universe. It's all dominoes.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: So, we're deterministic. And the best you could say there is, I was determined to believe in determinism, and you are determined not to believe in determinism if determinism turns out to be true. So, the simple thing there is, if it is true, we could never know it. It could be the case, and we could believe it accurately, but not for reasons other than we were determined to do it.

Kathleen Noller: Whom

Greg Koukl: So, I just want to take that off the table because that just complicates things immensely. what the reform position is, at least at its very base, and some, I think, take this in in ridiculous directions or too...

Kathleen Noller: Yes, absolutely.

Greg Koukl: illicit extremes and one of those extremes as i just addressed but what it what it teaches is that what is determined is our salvation not every single thought and every single action because that would make God responsible for evil okay now if a person is of that conviction or maybe they're Arminian, but their conviction is it's the Holy Spirit that does all the work. Then they fall, I think, into another rut. And they, let me just take the folks that object. Well, what's the point of evangelism then?

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: I asked this question. Was Jesus predetermined by God's plan to die on a cross in AD? Very simple question. Peter talks about this in Peter. Through the foreknowledge of God is what God says. It's a plan. got what he purposed this from the beginning. But wait a minute. After Jesus was born, Joseph had a dream and said, take Jesus, go to Egypt. Why? Because his life was being threatened. Okay, now, Joseph could have said, oh, wait a minute, I read the prophecies. I know he's going to die on a cross, Psalm. He can't be killed by Herod. It's not possible because your predetermined plan is otherwise. So, I don't have to go anywhere, God. Well, of course, that's silly because when God ordains certain ends to take place, he ordains the means that lead up to them. Now, that's a classic way of responding, but it certainly makes sense that all these pieces fit together. You read in the Old Testament, David, he's about to go to battle or some of the others in the book of Judges, you know, and if I go up, I will defeat? Yes, you'll defeat them. I will defeat them. Okay, great. And then God says, lay an ambush. Why do I need to lay an ambush? You're going to do this; I'm going to sit back and do nothing. Go out and kill those guys like you said you're going to do. You see, it's this is an oversimplistic and an inaccurate way of understanding how God works.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: He works through a matrix of circumstances. And all those circumstances are necessary parts of the end that God has already ordained. and we participate in that. They're meaningful activities. If we are willing to say that God, one, ordained the death of Christ in AD to pay for our sins, and two, he demanded that Joseph ah take Jesus and Mary to Egypt to be protective of Herod, then this is the only other conclusion you can come up with. And incidentally, that was just one obvious example. I catalog these things. As I'm reading, here's another one. Here's another one. Here's another one where God ordains a particular end, and he even vocalizes it, maybe to the prophet or whoever or to David.

And then he says, and here's how you get there. ah you Do these things. And they must do them. So, there is no inconsistency, the point being here, with God, maybe God in the Reformed sense, electing in a solid position deterministic way the end, which is salvation for some, and commanding the means to the end. Okay? So that still leaves, even if you have a strong understanding of the sovereignty of God and salvation, that still allows or that does not under undermine persuasive evangelism, or any evangelism for that means. There are means that God has put into place and commended to us. I mean, commended is not a strong enough word. Commanded to us and one of those means is to give a defense for the faith. So now we're backing down. We're kind of closer to the original thing. And the way I've heard this one, Kathleen, is that that oh no you can't argue anybody into the kingdom.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: Now they might add... Only the Holy Spirit can do that. But now what they've created is a false dichotomy. They make it sound like you’re either arguing them into the kingdom or the Holy Spirit is winning them. Okay. But question of a person like that might be, well, when you are ah doing evangelism, do you talk to them about the gospel? Oh, ye of course they do. Oh, well, then the Holy Spirit's not doing it. You're doing it. You're talking them into the kingdom. Okay. If you want to use that motif, okay, well, that's silly. You got to talk to communicate the message that God is going to use.

Kathleen Noller: yeah

Greg Koukl: You're not going to say, well, will the elect please come forward?

Kathleen Noller: then

Greg Koukl: You know, kind of thing. No, yeah but if you're using a means to the end, those means are legitimate to the end, and the means don't interfere with the Holy Spirit's work. In fact, the Holy Spirit is using that means, even if we're just sticking to the simple means of communicating the simple gospel. There's a means involved or nothing happens. Now, God can work immediately, directly, like he did with, say, Saul. Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting? You know, that's direct, right?  And God got his attention. But notice that the next step was for God to tell send Ananias to Saul, who is now sequestered and blind and wondering what is going on.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: And then Ananias communicates the message. That's the means that God has and it’s interesting what he says. He says, you communicate to him how much I have, I don't have it right in front of me, but I'm just going by memory, something to the effect, how much I have ordained for him to suffer on my behalf. In other words, God tells him right there, hey, I got a plan. I have a wonderful plan for your life, Saul. Suffering and hardship and difficulty on my behalf. That's what you're going to do. All right. And so, God is to explain the end is to come, but it's going to happen through a means, obviously. Notice that God has determined this end, but there's no sense in the passage that it's somehow...a done deal in the sense that we play no part in the unfolding of that, or Paul plays no part in the unfolding that, or Ananias in that case. So, we have all these partnerships with God that are taking place in the process of accomplishing a purpose that God has determined to take place himself. And the entire Scripture from top to bottom, you go back to the earlier chapters of the Old Testament, and all the way through, you see the exact same kind of pattern. God ordaining an end and then saying, okay, now here's how we're going to get there.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: and nobody says well i don't need to do that because you already ordained it that's a question people ask nowadays but it's not a bit it is not a in a certain sense of i understand the question but it's not a biblically legitimate question because these things happen all the time they're all of a whole piece and we are participating in that so that that brings us now back to the beginning. Do people get one to Christ through argent, ah or is it just the Holy Spirit? Well, I've already mentioned that's a false dichotomy. This is a factual claim people are making about what happens with individuals in salvation. And the fact of the matter is, I know all kinds of people who got saved through argents.

Kathleen Noller: yeah

Greg Koukl: So, if you're saying this doesn't happen, it happens all the time. You probably know who Jay Warner Wallace is, you know, the cold case detective. Jim was one to Christ. to Lee Strobel, Frank Turk. I mean, ah lots of players. That is not the case with me. Mine is a unique circumstance. I wasn't one to Christ through apologetics. It was ah a different enterprise. But The point is, there are lots of people who are. It happens all the time. In fact, it's not just happening all the time. In our experience, I know people that it happened to. You do too as well. It happens in Scripture. Paul says, this text says, Paul reasoned with them in different ways, sometimes from the scriptures when he was talking with Jews, say Acts, and then in Acts, I think that's Areopagus, where he's reasoning with them, not through scripture, but in a different means of argent. And he's quoting Epicurean philosophers. He's not quoting... you know Moses, and he gives a very clever sermon. It's the sermon regarding the unknown God. It’s very clever, and there's a lot of reasoning that's involved in this. And ah at the end, and then he preaches Christ raised from the dead and now that was the point where people said, oh no, this is too much. There’s a little irony here. I don't know if you thought about this, Kathleen, but one of the objections to the Gospels is that this is a rehashing of ancient ah religious views of dying and rising saviors, you know, and stuff like that.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: And this really has no substance to it at all. And I've written about this. You mentioned the book, The Story of Reality. I have a section devoted to that. But others have demonstrated this is just not the case. There's almost no... a meaningful similarity between the life of Jesus and any of those Osiris and bl bl bl all the other. But it's interesting when he's talking to pagans and he mentions the resurrection of Christ, they don't say, oh, we've heard that story before.

Kathleen Noller: Yes true.

Greg Koukl: That's all these other religions. That's what you got. No, they're contemptuous of it. This is ridiculous. This is stupid. We can't believe this nonsense. ah That's just a little aside, no extra charge. But,

Kathleen Noller: and

Greg Koukl: Notice, though, that he is arguing with them, and the text says that some were persuaded. In each of these cases, with the Jews with the Gentiles, some were persuaded. And what were they persuaded by? They were persuaded, we know, behind the scenes, by the Holy Spirit, but what is the means to that end? It's argents. And here I mean argents not in the sense of a squabble or a quarrel or something like that. I mean it in the sense of giving reasons for a conclusion. It's straightforward and there it is, So I just don't understand when somebody says nobody has ever wanted Christ through an argent and even suggests sometimes that's somewhat spiritually illicit.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: because these are people that have never talked to people about how they became Christians, because if they talk to people about how they became Christians, they're going to encounter lots of people that have been one to Christ through an argent. And I know a lot about them because this is the field that I'm in. But then, and they also have not looked carefully at the book of Acts because it happens all the time in the book of Acts. And even in the life of Jesus, you have Jesus performing these miracles, and many believed in virtue of what he said and taught and did. Raising of Lazarus, many believed this was a problem, which is a problem for the Jews, which is why they tried to kill Jesus. because he raised Lazarus. I mean, duh. then they try to kill Lazarus. This is in chapter of John. They plotted to kill Lazarus as well, because he was living, breathing evidence that Jesus was the Messiah. and they said, we got to do this, because if this man keeps going like this, everybody's going to believe. So, here's the here's the enemies of Christ that are acknowledging that the evidence is making a difference in transforming people.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: And that's just a little sliver from the Gospels or many other examples that I could give. So, this is just that there is no basis for this statement. And it really bothers me when I hear people say it because I think that, though they, in their mind, I think to assess this charitably, I would say they think this is the spiritual thing.

Kathleen Noller: yes

Greg Koukl: And so, they want to do spiritual things. But you must decide what's spiritual by what the text says is appropriate. And the text says, always being ready to give an answer, to make a defense. I always get this one mixed up, although it's the apologist basic verse from Peter. Always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks you to make a defense for the hope that's within you. Well, that's ah apologia defense. That means apologetics.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, absolutely.

Greg Koukl: Give the reasons.

Kathleen Noller: I'm one of those people who was converted through argent, if you can phrase it that way, about years ago. And so, you know, this sort of line of tactic is something that I've seen fruit in my own life. And I think I found a lot of Christians who, you know, phrase the objection like I phrased to you. almost put it in a sense of, well, if you trust it in God, then you wouldn't feel the need to try so hard. But the truth about the matter is, is that every single day we decide to act in one way or another. You can’t live without deciding.

Greg Koukl: Sure.

Kathleen Noller: And so, if you encounter a non-believer, you either must decide, or am I going to say something to them about Christianity? Am I not? You must make all these decisions. And so, you can't really, there's really no option to just trust in the Lord and sort of step back and let the Holy Spirit do whatever without your free will playing a part in it because you must decide that at some point anyway.

Greg Koukl: Sure Yes, of course. Of course, even if, I mean, ah even, like I said even on a reform perspective, your free will is in play. that There's just an understanding, a deeper understanding of why we are exercising our freedom in this way. I mean, ah people that get married, get married for a reason. They get married generally in America because of emotional attachment and a mixture of things that think this is going to be a good partnership for the future. But the emotional things that are happening are not a function of their will. They are not loving because they're choosing. i had it was a priest once in a wedding who made this profound statement, and he said, you're here at the altar to get married because you love each other. From now on, that order reverses. Now you're going to love each other because you are getting married. So, there is a sense in which we exercise our wills to act loving when we don't feel it. But when people are coming to the altar, because of what they feel. But they didn't choose that.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: It happened to them, all right? But nevertheless, their actions in response to what happened to them are still based on their free choice. They're freely choosing. They could say, no, I'm getting cold feet at the altar, I'll go the other way, but they're making the choice. And so, I think this becomes a fair motif. It's not even a parallel. It's not an illustration. It's a way of characterizing how these things happen in human beings. When people, let's call it, fall in love, something is going on that's not in their control. Now, they are supposed to control how they respond to it. Sometimes they don't do that properly, obviously.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: But that's not, what's in control is how they respond. It might be if it's a legitimate situation, then they respond by choosing to get married. In the same way, God can work in our hearts and influence us in such a way that we freely choose Him. And there's no inconsistency there.

Kathleen Noller: yes

Greg Koukl: It's so ordinary because this is the way humans operate in this area. And so, with regards to them, oh, you're trying so hard, so you're trusting in your efforts. You know, if you I think it's John, or maybe there's two spots in John and John, but I think this is John. Jesus is frustrated when he's talking the Jewish leaders. It's obvious because they won't believe him. And he acknowledges, it looks like you don't believe me because I'm testifying for myself. And you yeah that's only one witness. All right. What about Moses? What about John the Baptist? What about the miracles that I do?

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: What about the scripture that's a bang, bang, bang? Jesus is telling them, here are the reasons why. Now, one could argue, looking at his efforts, why is he trying so hard and not trusting the Holy Spirit? You know, but there he is trying hard. What did Paul do?

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: The same thing. You know, he looks at him with, I get these guys mixed too. ah f Festus, there's three guys there after he gets arrested, he kind of goes through. Festus is one of them. Agrippa is another one. There he is. He's trying to prevail over them. And well I think it's Festus that says, hey, your great learning is driving you mad, you know but Agrippa says, you know, you keep going, you're going to persuade me to become a Christian. He said, “I would that you would believe all that I believe and have, except for have the chains that I carry right now. But what is Paul doing? He's trying so hard, of course he's trying so hard. Does that mean he's not trusting in the spirit? No, he's doing his job. He's doing his job.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: Then he's letting God take care of the results. Now, they do talk about this in chapter, I think chapter one of tactics, the role of argentation. and the importance of us doing our side and then letting God worry about his side, which that's not our business.

Kathleen Noller: who

Greg Koukl: Who he decides to work and to save and to move and whatever, that's all behind the curtain of his sovereignty. But he's given us a job to do and we're to do it. And part of that is to speak the truth clearly, graciously, and persuasively. And we see that modeled by everyone who does that in the New Testament. This complaint is completely without foundation.

Kathleen Noller: Yes. Thank you so much for addressing that. That is something that I've heard very often in Christian circles and has been a little bit frustrating as I've been embarking on this apologetics journey.

Greg Koukl: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: But I'd like to ask you next.

Greg Koukl: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: So let's say that somebody does want to get into apologetics and so or evangelism, and they're looking for people  who might be receptive or curious when we're looking for people who we want to evangelize to should we look for folks who already seem like they might be receptive to the gospel who or who seem to show signs of seeking should we work on those who appear to have hardened hearts as well  what are some signs that someone might be ready to engage

Greg Koukl: Ye, well, just a point about the hardened hearts. We don't know this very well.  That is, there are people that just seem to be hardened, and that's obvious by their response, but the perception is they're so hard, there' nothing's going to get into them.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: And keep in mind that Saul of Tarsus was murdering Christians as an act of spiritual piety.

Kathleen Noller: yes

Greg Koukl: And he felt justified. And he told it his own testimony. I went from town to town, gathering these people up, dragging them into pit prison. And he was there when Stephen was martyred, you know, and he took the coats. He was kind of the official, so to speak, over that thing. Yet God got through to him. It was very dramatic the way he did. But there, I mean, I know people who have had dramatic conversions too, almost like instantaneously.

Kathleen Noller: Wow.

Greg Koukl: Beckett Cook, former homosexual in Hollywood, knew everybody in Hollywood, and walks into a church, committed homosexual, and walks out a committed Christian acknowledging that all his lifestyle was mistaken and he's now on a new course. He's got his own podcast now and stuff has written some books and stuff. But just for one example, that kind of thing happened. So, I would never...i would never prese that it's a waste of time to witness somebody because I think they're so hard-headed. I think the general role to follow...

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: And you I do say in the first chapter of tactics that I'm basically looking for the person who's looking for me. So, in a sense, I am particularly...i am particularly interested in or sensitive to, those people who are kind of in a place in their life that God has brought them, where they're asking questions and they're wondering and they're trying to figure out there is an openness. That's the best situation. And that's going to be obvious when I think you start talking about them, about spiritual things. But it’s not always true, though. I mean, you don't always know where a person is at. I became a Christian September. That was a Friday night. September nineteen seventy-three the next day I was scheduled, my brother was with me that night in my apartment in West LA. So, he stayed over, he was living in Long Beach, but he stayed over. And then we went out to the beach with some friends of mine, two couples. And one of the guys, they were both medical students at UCLA, married. And one of the guys was my doubles partner. Okay, I played in a tennis tournament. And so, he's my doubles partner. And so, but- in the day in the barbecue coming back home and having food or whatever, somebody started speaking derisively about Christianity, you know, out of nowhere kind of thing. Somebody has given them a tract on the beach and they're talking about how stupid this is. And so here I am one day old Lord, I'm going, well, I believe that. And of course, this created massive disruption. In fact, it was such a huge disruption.

Kathleen Noller: Oh, I bet.

Greg Koukl: And that the three there were three, my doubles partner and his buddy who are med students at UCLA and his buddy's wife, Mona, they are just, you know, totally ganged up on me for hours. And, you know, I'm doing my best, you know, to hold the line. And I had a terrible headache afterwards. and i didn't hear I didn't hear much from Vic's wife, Sandy, because she was in the background. She was taking care of dishes and whatever. Excuse me. And so that what ended up happening is I never saw Vic again in my entire life.

Kathleen Noller: Wow.

Greg Koukl: I never saw him again. That was the end of our relationship.

Kathleen Noller: Wow.

Greg Koukl: He was my doubles partner. Okay. And then, but three years later, I got a call from Sandy, and both couples are now divorced. And Sandy's been having dreams about me. And she's trying to get in touch with me about this spiritual kind of whatever. And so, what she told me then, and this is kind of the moral of this story, a true story is that everybody else was beaten up on me, but she was listening in the background. And then three years later, in this second, what we were reunited She became a Christian. So, you never know. ah These guys were hardheaded, right? Oh, my goodness. And but nevertheless, they were willing to argue with me.

Kathleen Noller: Oh, yes.

Greg Koukl: So, I'm going to be willing to argue with them, argue in the sense of, well, it was really an argent. It was heated. But the point is, if they're willing to engage, even though I think they're hardheaded, I'm willing to engage. Now, I may not be able to answer other questions, particularly if I'm kind of a newbie or whatever, but OK, then I'll have to think about that. You know, I’ll talk about this in the book, what you deal with when you're in a hot seat, so to speak. You say, well, I've never heard that before. Tell me your view and I'll have to think about it. And then that gives you some time on your own to think about it. You know, you can't answer everything. I don't even. So, the I mean, all of that to say, I prefer talking to someone who has a spiritual openness and then I just take the time. And there is a season in people's lives of what I call gardening now, where people are gardening in their lives to bring about the harvest. And that takes a while. Some people think it's shorter. Back at Cook, it was like instantaneous.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: But for most people, it's not instantaneous. It's a process. And so, we're involved in that process. and but you never know when you're talking to some bonehead and somewhere down the line that begins to bear fruit. I was a bonehead for a long time.

Kathleen Noller: Me too.

Greg Koukl: Yeah. Okay. So, there you have it.

Kathleen Noller: Yes. Yeah. You talk about in the book, having the Sower role or the reaper role on evangelism. And I really liked that description to show people that they're, you know, just because you're not seeing immediate fruit, don't be discouraged.

Greg Koukl: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: Doesn't mean that God hasn't used you in that person’s life and for a purpose.

Greg Koukl: Exactly.

Kathleen Noller: And so, touching on sort of the, the, ah your story of coming to faith and how you had this, I don't know if contentious would be the right word discussion with these friends who were sort of coming at you with lots of, lots of argent.

Greg Koukl: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: There have been many articles written about folks like Tim Keller, who were very winsome in their approach to apologetics, seeking to make Christianity very attractive to non-believers. And then Roger in an article recently wrote that quote, winsomeness, that concept beloved by Tim Keller followers died when Charlie Kirk had his throat blown out. So yeah.

Greg Koukl: yeah

Kathleen Noller: Do you think the winsomeness model is really outdated or does it still apply in some scenarios?

Greg Koukl: No, it's a biblical model.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: If it's a biblical model, it's not outdated. Colossians chapter, verse and.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: Okay, conduct yourself with wisdom towards outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. So first, be smart. I’ll Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned as it were with salt, so you know how to respond to each person. So be smart and then be nice. It's right there. And in our verse that we were talking about ah earlier from Peter, now let’s see if I can get it right this time. Sacrificed Christ as Lord in your heart, always being ready, to give an answer to everyone who asks you to make a defense for the hope that's within you, yet with gentleness and reverence. Oh, there it is again. How about, I might have to pull up my Bible to get this, ah because it's a longer one.  Timothy the last verse It says, the Lord's bondservant is not to be quarrelsome, but patient when wronged.

Kathleen Noller: Oh,

Greg Koukl: And then it's kind of interesting what follows in in the process of doing that, he says that maybe the Lord will grant them repentance and they will come to their senses, having been held captive by Satan to do his will. So, there's a lot going on there in that verse.

Kathleen Noller: yes

Greg Koukl: First, there's our MO, the way we are to engage. And this is, and so not quarrelsome, not people picking a fight, but patient. And this is a means that God uses to turn them around, bring them to repentance, and break the bonds of slavery that Satan has on their minds. Because notice he says, they will come to their senses. So, these are all parts of this, all working together. You have an enemy that has blinded the minds of unbelievers, that holds the whole world captive to do his will. This is John and so you've got a real, how do you get through that? it This is what God does, and he's got to do it sovereignly. Because people are not going to cooperate, especially if they're held captive by Satan to do as well. But what is how we accomplish that? We don't get in fights with them. We are patient when wrong. Okay. And then we carry on from that. You know, I don't know if you know about the church that was attacked with very recently had to do with the whole ICE thing.

Kathleen Noller: Oh, yes, I saw this.

Greg Koukl: And it's a bunch of people who are part of the ah the pastors were part of a gospel coalition, I think. But they were fabulous in the way they responded.

Kathleen Noller: They really were, yes.

Greg Koukl: in and this is the kind of thing that is beholden upon us to respond in those ways, even when attacked. Now, there are certainly places to be, in a sense, sterner. But it's not to be mean, nasty, harsh, whatever. That is not the direction we're giving. Some of the times Jesus was aggressive okay but most of the time that wasn't the case. He was truthful and direct. And that was perceived as aggressive by a lot of people. But he was just being truthful and direct.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: and I'm all for that. But that doesn't mean harsh. I know there's this little controversy about, oh the Tim Keller way, and now we don't do that anymore. Really? okay then then you show me what we're supposed to do and give me the biblical text for it. I don't see in any way how Charlie Kirk's assassination changed any of that.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: I mean, this is, I’m glad that was brought up as a contrary point and to what we're saying, because it turns out to be just the opposite.

Kathleen Noller: Sure.

Greg Koukl: Oh, Charlie k Kirk was nice. You know, he would let people talk. He would put the microphone down so they could talk freely and then he'd respond. Oh, and that got him killed. So, why is that a kind of reason to reject his methodology? That got him killed. You know what got him killed? His effectiveness. If he wasn’t effective and he wasn’t being nice, i mean, if he wasn't effective by being nice, nobody would have taken a shot at him. He was being effective. Right? Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people were hearing what he had to say. and many of them that he had this discussion within public were spotted in kind. They mellowed out, you know, and they had this conversation. He but he was a student of the tactic’s material, it's so ironic somebody would use Charlie as an example, the end of an era, when that's almost like saying, you know, we shouldn't preach all that stuff that Jesus preached.

Kathleen Noller: They got him killed.

Greg Koukl: That got him killed, man. That's all over with. We're going to find some other way too, it's so goofy. Sorry, but it's just goofy, Kathleen.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, that's, that's so funny. I had no idea that he was a student of the tactic’s method. And that makes that quote ever, ever more interesting. I was very moved by the Tim Keller style winsomeness. I was converted by folks who learned from Tim Keller.  And, you know, I think even in situations where I was i was listening to this debate a long time ago between Stephen Meyer, who's an intelligent design proponent, and...

Greg Koukl: Oh, yeah. I've known him for many, many years I've known him.

Kathleen Noller: Yes. Oh, really?

Greg Koukl: Yes, he is amazing.

Kathleen Noller: He is. And he was debating, I don't know the name of the fellow, but he was debating with an atheist who was an evolutionary biologist. And they were having this debate. It’s on YouTube for anybody. I'll try to find the link to it.  But regardless of where you stand in you know creationism, IDE, evolutionary, theistic evolution, regardless of where you stand, you listen to this debate, and he came across with so much grace and so much kindness and so much self-control in the way that he was speaking.

Greg Koukl: Right.

Kathleen Noller: As a contrast to this other fellow who came across in a very angry and combative way. And regardless of what you say that oh, I'll just listen to the bait and focus on the facts and the content of the words, you're also very affected by the delivery of each of the speakers.

Greg Koukl: Right. Of course.

Kathleen Noller: And so, you know, I’ve shown that to people who are not ID sympathetic by any means, and they found themselves sympathetic, I think, in part, obviously, because of the content of what he was saying, but also moved by his affect and his witness in that way.

Greg Koukl: Yes, of course. You know, part of the, and I'm not sure how much of this kind of interfaith or debate public things you've engaged with yourself. Imagine some given your background in science and as a PhD, what is your field and as a PhD?

Kathleen Noller: It's biomedical engineering technically as a PhD.

Greg Koukl: Oh, that's interesting. I just got fuzz, I got an advanced copy of Fazzarana's book, who is dealing with biochemical engineering.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: And it's kind of like Island of Dr. Moreau stuff, too. This is on the horizon, but it's very interesting. But the point I was going to make that in these engagements; there's a certain gamesmanship that's going along.

Kathleen Noller: Nice.

Greg Koukl: It says how you how It's not just the facts and not the information, but how those things are presented that determines whether they're persuasive. And when a person is calm, collected and gracious and charitable, it communicates confidence. And when something communicates confidence, it adds to the persuasive element. So not only is grace good manners, it's good style, persuasive style. So, and yes you're right about Stephen. Stephen's always been that way. I can think of things that you know I saw him do back in the days. Amazing. And I think this is characteristic of that crowd. They're not caustic. You know and the part of the reason is they it's easier to be gracious when you have a good agent.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: When you have very good reasons, you don't need to pound the podium, so to speak.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: You know, I tell people, look, we don't need to use loaded rhetoric because we have an argent.

Kathleen Noller: Ye true.

Greg Koukl: People without the agent, they're the ones who scream and yell and use all this rhetoric. ah We don't have to do that. We've got good reasons for our views. So, I, you know, I'm sad to think that, you know, people are moving away from them, then, the winsome and attractive style of Tim Keller. I mean, there might be things I would disagree with Keller on, but it's not that's not one of them.

Kathleen Noller: Sure.

Greg Koukl: you know I just don't get that. And again, notice my principal appeal is to the text. how did What do the text say we should do? How did they comfort themselves? You know and so and if that's what the text says, then that's what we should be doing.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, especially as Protestants who are listening and who are adherents of Sola Scriptura, that you know really should be the place that we're going to first.

Greg Koukl: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: I have sort of a follow-up question for that specifically for women. And I'm curious about your opinion of this. So often as a woman, we tend to have higher trait and agreeability. And in my interactions with women, I found that it's more important for me to not be perceived as threatening and sometimes that can come across not from being not from me being combative or me being loud or disrespectful or anything like that, but just from voicing a simple disagreement. And that disagreement indicates a breach in the relationship.

Greg Koukl: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And so, I've struggled with this in the past of, I'm curious as to whether you have specific advice for women or just very, very highly agreeable people. If you're talking to somebody like that, who wants a relationship with you and is going to be very threatened by any sort of disagreement, whether it's phrased in a gracious way.

Greg Koukl: Yeah. Well, first, Kathleen, it's hard for me to imagine that you would appear threatening to anyone. You have such a sweet demeanor.

Kathleen Noller: Thank you.

Greg Koukl: But there are people of that not only have this kind of way of looking at things that you just described that maybe is more characteristic of women than men, though men still have some of that too. You also have people with weak egos. And what I mean by that is they're just, they're not,

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: I don't mean...  I'm not talking about strong egos in the sense of being egotistic. I'm talking about stronger egos in the sense of being comfortable with themselves and confident and not easily unsettled with disagreement. Okay? And but some people a lot of people aren't like that for whatever reason. So even modest disagreement, they take personally and they got to shoot back or whatever in an offend. I've encountered people like that. I don't know, haven't noticed so much of it, I think you're more in tune with the kind of feminine mystique kind of thing, but certainly in the category people being maybe over sensitized for whatever reason. I think what I try to do is i try to pay attention to the dynamic conversation. And if you're paying attention, you can tell when people are starting to get uncomfortable with something. If maybe you're seeming too aggressive for them. Now, some people can take a lot of kind of, I don't say verbal abuse, but they can. Jay Warner Wallace. So, Jim is one of my best friends. He's a cop. You can throw Jim to the mat. You know, he's not going to take offense. You can just roll around and, you know, do the whole thing. And he'll throw you to the mat kind of deal. But it's fine because those ego problems are not. Jim doesn't have a weak ego.

Kathleen Noller: Okay.

Greg Koukl: But other people are much, much more sensitive to that. And so, you just must be careful. So, you’re more I think I would say I’m in a circumstance like that, I'm going to speak in a less dogmatic way. And I'm going to use language like, well, maybe you haven't thought about this. Here's just something to think about. I don't know. You may not agree with it. That's fine. Something to think about and then offer the thing rather than, i like a gain saying, contradicting. You know, boom, then the ego is kind of at stake.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: But if you can soften it that way, and I think in the book, there's in the third step of the tactics, which is using questions to make a point. I have several different little statements like that that you might use. Have you ever considered this? I'm curious what your thoughts are about that. or something like that. There's a series of them. And those are all things that can, it's meant to get them thinking. Now you're using your questions to make a point. It’s meant to get them thinking about maybe the mistaken thinking that you are pointing out that they're making, but you're trying to do it in this gentle way. I think the phrase, I could be mistaken on this, is ah is a useful phrase.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: Now, I don't encourage people to use that for rhetorical purposes. don't Just say that because it'll help you. I don't believe in saying things that are disingenuous, but I think in most things I could be mistaken in because I'm not perfect and I have been mistaken in a few things, you know, and so I'm willing to say that.

Kathleen Noller: Sure. Yeah.

Greg Koukl: Well, I could be mistaken, but somebody's got to convince me. So, I'm not just emoting. I'm not just being socialized. I have some reasons for this. it Could be mistaken. So, let's talk about it. What are your thoughts about this? There are other times when I'm maybe in a discussion with other Christians that in my field, and we're having a Q&A, and they give a response that I don't agree with. I might just say to them, hey, I'm going to push back on that a little bit. Is that all right with you? I'm just going to push back. I see it from a different perspective. And then I'll give my perspective and some of my reasons for it. And it's not so much of a now one versus another, but what we're doing is we are putting on the table some different views for people to consider with their reasons. So, there were a few ways to, I think, soften it so that that the ego is not being injured or threatened, that is, of the person that you're speaking to be gentler.

Kathleen Noller: yes

Greg Koukl: And that's just a good relational approach. thing, you know, that that's important to learn, not just for what we do here, but for all your relationships, especially your most intimate ones like husband and wife or with your children. And ironically, this is where we let our guard down.

Kathleen Noller: yes

Greg Koukl: In other words, we're much harsher in the relationships that we ought to be more careful with because they're so much more important to us. So, we're much harsher with them than we are with maybe even strangers. But we should be careful in all of those. That's what virtue requires.

Kathleen Noller: Yes. I was going to say some of the advice reminds me of sort of it could be applied to a marriage as well. And, you know, your role together as a partnership, if you're having these apologetic conversations, might be thought of better as seeking the truth as a partnership and sort of looking towards that rather than this combat you know, one versus the other and one person has to win and it's all about you sort of situations.

Greg Koukl: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: That reminds me of the marriage advice.

Greg Koukl: you

Kathleen Noller: But I'm curious as too, you know you've had so many conversations with so many people throughout your career. And I'm curious as to how the encounters generally that you've had with non-Christians have changed over the course of your career think we've all heard the stereotype that maybe, years ago, it was more about these intellectual objections around specific topics like Old Testament genocide or New Testament historicity or something like that. And nowadays there's more of an interest in finding hope or finding meaning or living a good life. Is that true in your experience? And what have you seen those trends look like?

Greg Koukl: Yes, I don't know if I'm the best person to ask about that. I still get those other questions that you mentioned act part a new trend from my perspective because I got over half a century in this now. But and those are, I think Jay Richards calls those the pelvic issues, you know, all those things that reflect sexuality.  But I think this whole idea of meaning and hope is a big deal. I think it's a big deal.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: I've spoken on over university campuses over the years, but that is not a mainstay for me now, like Frank Turrick continues to do that. In fact, he picked up the balance for frank for Charlie after Charlie was shot, he and Ali Beth.

Kathleen Noller: Hello.

Greg Koukl: But I don't have, I'm not doing that much anymore, maybe once or twice a year. and so  actually i spoke at a university the day after the day after Charlie was killed it was in Atlanta I’ve i tend to get more Christians at those events for some reason i don't know where frank gets a lot more non-Christians that's why he always brings his cameraman you know but i i think there is this trend it isn't that i have encountered it myself that much

Kathleen Noller: Sure.

Greg Koukl: But there is this trend. And I have talked about this. And Justin Briarley wrote this book what he's talking about is how there is a change

Kathleen Noller: yeah

Greg Koukl: among the rank and file but of the kind of you know he talks about tom holland the British historian and his reflections and then i can never say this name of the girl who is the

Kathleen Noller: Too many on you

Greg Koukl: former. she's kind of an anti-Muslimism activist former Muslim who became an atheist now has become a Christian she's got a complicated name  anyway she's another example of these people that are that are really high up Douglas Murray’s another one uh who's still an atheist but he considers himself a Christian atheist because all of his values are Christian none of his values line up with his atheistic world view which has got to create some kind of cognitive dissonance with him that

Kathleen Noller: Yes, absolutely.

Greg Koukl: In any event, so, and a big part of it is there's no hope in atheism. There is nothing and that, it may be that atheism is true, but part, I mean, for the sake of discussion, but part of the difficulty is it does not match up with our deep intuitions about the nature of reality. Okay. We know there's a problem of evil. Everybody knows that. It doesn't matter where you live or when you live. Everybody knows the world's broken. Something's wrong with the world. Okay.  But if you're an atheist, you have to deny that because there is no, if things aren't the way they're supposed to be, that means there is a way they're supposed to be. And there can't be a way they're supposed to be without a spore, you know? And so, with God out of the picture, well, that's counterintuitive. And what about values? What about purpose? What about hope?

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: What about being rescued from the ugliness of the world? And atheists cannot offer anything like that in their worldview. And more people, I think, are discovering that you do you, which is the calling card of the age. What, I mean, during the counterculture in the s, before I became a Christian, it was whether a bunch of them live for today, if it feels good, do it, whatever turns you on different strokes for different folks.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: You're smiling. Like you remember those things, but you don't remember him. You're not old enough.

Kathleen Noller: We had YOLO in my college days.

Greg Koukl: Oh, what is it?

Kathleen Noller: You only live once.

Greg Koukl: Oh, you are only live once.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: Okay. Well, that's a beer commercial. That's where they, I think it was Miller. But in any event, ye it's all narcissistic. It's all completely narcissistic.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: And when you think about any of those slogans, we want to live those slogans for ourselves, but we don't want anyone else to live that way towards us.

Kathleen Noller: Sure.

Greg Koukl: And so, and I think what we're seeing in this generation, and this has been the last couple of years, especially it's been more evident, And Justin's book talks about this. Justin's book is a really good book. However, the title is for that interviewed him. A of times I can't read the whole book because I don't have time to read everything that I enter in. But I read enough that I really get a sense of it.

Kathleen Noller: sure

Greg Koukl: And then I got to move on to something else. Even if it's a good book. In Justin's case, I went back and finished the book and read every word because it was that good. And there was something very important being said.

Kathleen Noller: Nice.

Greg Koukl: And it has yeah and it has to do with this this this issue of ah of hope and the hopelessness in the direction people are going.

Kathleen Noller: I'll have to check it out.

Greg Koukl: Even Richard Dawkins said he wants to live in a Christian country, and he's bugged at all the Muslims in the UK who are changing everything.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: He says, this is a Christian country and that's the country I want to live in. I don't believe a word of it, but I want to live in this kind of country. You know, so it's so ironic. So, this has been a trend over the last few years. And what happened to Charlie was like a force multiplier. Suddenly, it was booming. And everywhere I go, I hear anecdotally, well, I mean it's not anecdotal. let's say Bible sales are way up. That's factual. But churches are being filled up, and youth groups are being filled up and people are responding. And I've heard people say, man, I wasn't paying attention to this until what happened to Charlie. And now suddenly, no, I'm paying attention. And so, they're on the path. Okay. Now, something similar happened in -. Okay.  And I was, I mean, you know, I remember that. That was just years ago or so. And excuse me, the churches filled up and then they emptied out after a while. Because the reason the churches filled up is people were scared. And when they stop being scared, they stop going back to church.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: But that isn't why the churches are being filled up. Now, they're being filled because people are inspired. This is a very different dynamic. I don't know how long it's going to last, but you're right. There is something going on. And I think this will be more meaningful, I think, for those of your listeners that are involved in youth work. Now, we have a youth enterprise. I don't know if you know about Stan to Reason.

Kathleen Noller: Nice.

Greg Koukl: We believe that the most important generation is the next generation. Always, always, always. Okay. So, we're not a youth thing, but we are ah we have a strategy for passing the baton. And these are a series of conferences. We do six a year. They're called Reality Student Apologetics Conferences. And we are aiming for...Middle schoolers and high schoolers. Now we don't check IDs, but in our marketing, this is what we're going for. All right.

Kathleen Noller: Only.

Greg Koukl: Now we have six of these. We've been doing them for about years and building and building. These are consistently selling out. We, we did, we did Atlanta and that was the first time in Atlanta that we did Atlanta. So, we only, we only had, ah only had about students. okay

Kathleen Noller: Only. yeah

Greg Koukl: But then we went to about student settle, where we've been since. And Seattle sold out a month in advance. We had students, something like that, because that was capacity.

Kathleen Noller: That's fantastic.

Greg Koukl: Then we went to Minneapolis and Minneapolis sold out days in advance with students.

Kathleen Noller: Wow.

Greg Koukl: And parents and youth leaders, but it's mostly. And now we have a break over Christmas and Dallas is in four weeks, three weeks from Friday from the date of our conversation here. And there's like seats of three thousand and then the following week is Philly.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: That's the smallest venue. Philly is already sold out, except for some overflow. And that's ah two months away. So, we've not seen it this aggressively Sellout. In advance, these are predominantly young people. Something's going on here. And so, we're thankfully nicely positioned after years of developing this strategy

Kathleen Noller: yeah

Greg Koukl: to be able to strike the iron while it's hot with young people, but they are very interested. And they flock to these things, and they run to the front of them, when they open the doors to the front of the auditorium to get the front seats. And it is really something to sit in a in an auditorium that holds, people and have it filled with mostly young people, middle schoolers and high schoolers, that most of them love Jesus and want to be trained in Christian apologetics to be effective for the cause of Christ.

Kathleen Noller: Yes that's incredible.

Greg Koukl: That is very cool. Yeah. So, you're on to something here. and I like I said, I think we should strike the iron while it's hot. Don't be intimidated. These kids are looking for answers and we have them. Now, one mistake we made during the Jesus movement when I became a Christian is we tried to make Christianity look all oozy-goosy, emotional. Oh, everything's wonderful. Everything's beautiful. Jesus will make you so happy and will solve all your problems and all this stuff.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: Well, look, when I became a Christian, Jesus turned my upside my life upside down.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: And so, we need to be candid with people that there's a price to pay. There's a price to pay, but we want them to pay that price. You follow Jesus. you beat your breast. You say, Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner. You get up and follow Jesus, and you don't ever stop no matter what. I mean, that's my message to them. That's my altar call, right?

Kathleen Noller: Yes absolutely.

Greg Koukl: Such as it is.

Kathleen Noller: Praise God. That's incredible to hear that there's so much, not only interest from the younger generation, but also that you all are actively engaging them because sometimes I've been to some churches that to me seem a little bit like going to a classical music venue or a concert.

Greg Koukl: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: and you just see you know predominantly older folks and there doesn't really seem to be this outreach effort to try to engage the next generation and so you just think like are they conscious of you know after they pass away the next people down the line there that that demographic is missing and you know how are we going to keep it going how are we going to build a legacy like a multi-generational network here so that's really fantastic to hear

Greg Koukl: Yeah. Right, it does remind me a little of the Jesus movement. And of course, the Holy Spirit was involved in that. And it was a unique period, but it was an opportunity. And I think we’re; people are using the word revival now I don't use that lightly. We'll see what eventuates, but certainly there's opportunity. There is opportunity.

Kathleen Noller: That's fantastic.  I was wondering if we could go through a few cases, which I personally encountered, I found difficult, or maybe you could pose some of the cases from your book. Maybe we could just talk through a few real-life examples of what your approach would be. And we can kind of work through them on the podcast here so people can see you know how the tactic works and how your mind works in real time.

Greg Koukl: Sure, of course.

Kathleen Noller: So, the first one, that I'll post to you is a friend of mine and you've kind of touched on this a little bit. So, this friend is a self-declared nihilistic hedonist who declares nothing has any meaning or purpose. The only drive behind hand activity is this biological desire to procreate, which is also meaningless. So, any attempt to ask this person about love, hope, the reason behind why they're doing their job, anything, I think their emotions are very disconnected from their intellectual answers. But every answer that I get is, well, you know if my husband has an affair, I don't care because he can do whatever he wants and he's just like an animal or I don't really see any purpose behind my job. I'm just doing it because it makes me feel good. So how do you crack through something like that?

Greg Koukl: Yeah. Okay. All right. I mean, I think that this is extreme, but you just described this as extreme and my first impulse is to ask more questions about their view, but you've been pretty good about sketching out the degree and the consistency that this person is ah is living, okay? So, I want to say, is there, is there is probably not best to kind of adopt a quasi-role play here.

Kathleen Noller: Oh, sure.

Greg Koukl: So, we'll just let you be the nihilist for the moment.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: And for those who may not know what that word means, it means nothing. Nothing is my way of characterizing it. There is no meaning, there is no significance, there is no importance, there is no morality, there is nothing but urges. and desires. And there is nothing then that is, in a certain sense, morally restraining them. We do whatever we want. Okay. And there is, and now there's some things that we may not like to have done to us, but we can use power against that if we want to. All right. And so, I guess my first question is that surprises me. I would say to you, it really, really surprises me.

Kathleen Noller: I'll do my best.

Greg Koukl: the only reason it surprised me is it just seems so counterintuitive to the nature of reality. So just so I understand your view. So, you do not think there is any morality of any kind that applies to anything that anyone ever does. So, you'd even be willing to say, you know, if your husband cheats on you, that's not wrong. He's just following his urges.

Kathleen Noller: He's just following his urges. He's just an animal.

Greg Koukl: Okay, so you think this is the way that all people ought to behave

Kathleen Noller: I wouldn't say ought because that would imply an imperative. I would say that this is the way that reality is. And so, everybody can behave this way, and I don't have any right to say that they should or they shouldn't.

Greg Koukl: Okay, good. Well, that's consistent. But I meant they ought not in a moral sense, but in a rational sense, like a rational ought, not a moral ought. Like you ought to believe, you know, two is the square root of four or something like that. So, you think these people ought in that sense to take this view and then pursue that but that has ramifications. So that that has, why would you think that's the truth? Notice now I'm stepping into the second step of the game plan. And the game, and now first I'm asking gathering information to get clear on the view, not being derisive at all, but being candid, like, what, really? Okay. Now I want the second step, justification for the view. So why would you think that what you just described?

Kathleen Noller: Because I don't have any evidence to the contrary, and I'm a materialist. So, I just believe that we are collections of atoms and molecules, and that's all there is in this world. I don't have proof of anything higher or anything other than that. And so, it doesn't really make sense to me to draw any other conclusions.

Greg Koukl: Okay, so you just said you're a materialist. That's your view, right? Now, I just want to let you know that I just tricked you in a kind way because you said that's your view. So, I have a question about views.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: Are view material? Do they extend in space? Do they have, you know, content, let's say, material content? Do they have weight? Do they respond to the laws of physics and chemistry? What do you think?

Kathleen Noller: I'll stick with the materialist line and say that, yes, I believe that they are pinging’s of neurons and chemical reactions that are happening hormonally or neurologically within the body.

Greg Koukl: Okay, I get that. But are you saying that chemical reactions are views, are you saying chemical reactions cause views?

Kathleen Noller: I think this person would, well, I would have to say chemical reactions are views. Otherwise, I would be acknowledging that a view is something non-material. So, I'll go with that to be fair, it sounds to me a little bit like you're cheating. You don't want to acknowledge something that's obvious, that a view isn't physical, because then you would have to question your physicalism. So, you're not willing to question your physicalism, but you told me a few moments ago that you are a physicalist because you don't see any other evidence to the contrary. Now, I have given you the most minimalistic piece of evidence. I could expand this category almost and infinity.

Greg Koukl: And just giving you that, you dismissed it out of hand because it doesn't agree with your view.

Kathleen Noller: Sure.

Greg Koukl; Not because there's the word view again, because your view has content. It has propositional content, right? But no proposition has any physical content. All thoughts are propositional. They may be caused, I'll grant this for the sake of discussion, by your brain activity. But that doesn't make the brain active. It is something else. And we know it's something else just by beholding it, thinking about the nature of it. So, I’m just laying this before you, I just want you to think about this. You're locked into a view, you say for reasons. But when I give you counterexamples that don't fit your view, you dismiss it. And it's interesting the way you dismissed it. You didn't dismiss it because the point wasn't a good one. You dismissed it because it didn't agree with your view. Okay. So, I'm just going to leave that point there. I want you to think about that. Because if it turns out you're mistaken in the large sense about things, this has all kinds of ramifications for you personally. And then also, if you're right and you really, it seems like you value truth, you made a reference to that because I think this is the true thing, then you'd want to, i would imagine, since you value truth, want other people to believe the same truth that you do, okay? But that means people are going to be freely given freedom, the latitude to act as nihilists, towards you. okay, so this is a practical application of your view, and you just got to wonder about that. I think when they start doing that, there's going to be some responses that are true responses from you that are going to reflect intuitions you have about the nature of reality that don't fit your nihilism.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: Now what? Are you just going to brush them off because they don't fit your nihilism? Or are you willing to take those into consideration, maybe change your view? I mean, that's up to you. You don't answer me on this. But for example, you were quite sanguine about your husband being unfaithful to you as a wife. I got it. That fits. Okay. But what if somebody else's husband was unfaithful to his wife by raping you. That would be if, unless I'm misunderstanding it, wouldn't that be consistent with your view?

Kathleen Noller: Yes, it would be.

Greg Koukl: Okay. So, what do you think about that?

Kathleen Noller: Well, intellectually, again, I must go along and say that it is what it is, that that is just human pleasure-seeking behavior and I cannot morally condemn it.

Greg Koukl: Yes, that's right. You would have to do that if you were being consistent.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: But the question I'm asking you is, does that ring true?

Kathleen Noller: right, I would imagine that one would have very strong emotional reactions to such behavior.

Greg Koukl: Yeah. Why would they have strong reactions?

Kathleen Noller: Because, trying to think if I can justify this within the person's framework. Because biologically they feel their survival is threatened.

Greg Koukl: How is their survival threatened when they're raped? Animals get raped all the time and it just propagates. Now, let me just pause here and narrate a little bit, like reflect on what's been happening. So, I started out by the game plan is three steps. First, you gather information. What do you mean by that? Then you, well, I call it reversing the word improve, but you're basically asking for the person to justify their view. They're making the claim, so they give the reasons for it if they have any. And the third one is to use questions to make a point. And the point that I'm seeking to make is I'm trying to use questions to demonstrate the counterintuitive nature of your view. Because the fact is when we're dealing with people, we're not just dealing with molecules. We're dealing with minds and minds that know things. And some of the things we know, we know because God has made our minds in a certain way to know those things. Now, in the book, I call this the inside out tactic because God has placed these things inside of us, excuse me, that are evidence is the truth of God's world. And they are not physical. For example, moral knowledge. And so, this is why people complain about the problem of evil, because it's real. They know it's real.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: But it has no physical status at all. It is an assessment of people's physical behaviors. That's all it is. And so, I'm trying to, I'm trying to cause those intuitions to rise to the surface a little bit with Elizabeth by posing these circumstances and asking her about that. And you can see there's, I think the difficulty you had Kathleen as being Elizabeth is because the questions that touched on things that were so real, it's hard to imagine somebody thinking of a way to deny them successfully.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: And this is part of what I'm getting at. This is the inside-out tactic. The way that chapter ends, the principle is that God has built stuff inside of us that eventually comes out. And those things that he's built inside of us that we can't keep from expressing somehow, when our guard is down especially, these bear testimony to the truth of the Christian worldview. Our view makes sense of that. The nihilistic atheist view does not make sense of that.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: Notice I didn't go into the atheism element, though that might have been a direction, because in your view, you're an atheist, you're just a physicalist, God doesn't exist, and there are serious problems with that as well. There are problems with consciousness, morality, and apparent design in the universe. I didn't even go in that direction, but I was just sticking with just this issue, and I had no reason to do that.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: I just saw this as an avenue. And so that's kind of the way I would kind of comfort myself here and hope that because of this conversation, Elizabeth, even though you know, her, her, she wasn't showing her hands at all inside. She's going, I never thought of that. You even said that at one point in the role play, never thought of that.

Kathleen Noller: further

Greg Koukl: And I want to just get them thinking, notice that my approach was not heavy handed at all. And I asked a lot of questions, even in stage three, I'm using questions to make my point that physicalism is false.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: And you bear testimony. I asked you, is this a view? This is your view. Oh, there, I got you. You talked about view. And ah I remember talking with a guy on the radio many years ago about the same kind of thing. And he said he was making the case for physicalism and there is no soul and whatever. And so, I'm asking about these mental activities that clearly are not physical. They don't have these physical qualities that I mentioned. And he said, well, it's not, it's just an idea. So, he, well, does an idea extend in space? Does it have, you know, weight?

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: Does it, et cetera, et cetera, you know, respond to the laws of physics and chemistry? And so, he just kept substituting synonyms, thinking he was getting out from underneath it. But the fact is, think of all the language that we have that refers to veridically, truthfully to, Immaterial things. I got this view. I have this belief. I have this opinion. That was wrong. I have plans you know These are all making statements about mental activities that have no physical substance at all. Now, there might be physical states that are involved in the process of these things. And that is a standard pushback. But notice how I just asked. But you just said, is i how would I put it? said, that may be the cause of it, but it isn't the view. The view is different.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: The view isn't brain matter. It's not molecules. It's not neurons. It's electrical impulses. It's something else. So anyway, one of my mentors was J.P. Moreland. And as a philosopher in career, His expertise is the philosophy of mind. And so, the mind-body problem, which is kind of what we're touching on here. And I think that's fascinating. And I think it's an opportunity for us to help people see that physicalism is false.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: It's obviously false, in my view. And all you have to do is listen to a person talk. And they're going to be identifying all these things that they know about that they are aware of, that they, in a certain sense, see because we have perceptive abilities beyond our five senses. And I don't mean the ESP or anything like that. Can't you just see that that was a mistake? Can't you see that two are the square root of four? don't Can't you see that? I had a student once during a Q&A at Berkeley of all places. When I asked him that question, he said, well, that's what my culture has taught me to believe. I said, wait a minute. You didn't know what two meant, right?

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: Yeah. You know what four means, right? Yeah. You know what a square root is? Yeah. Now, can't you just, see? Apart from whatever your culture says. And he wouldn't bite. But the whole audience was kind of booing at him. He was cheating so obviously. And I just, okay, left it right there. Thanks.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, that that is such a compelling way to go about it. And I love the tactic of asking questions as well.

Greg Koukl: Sure. That's

Kathleen Noller: I'm wondering if we could go through a second example, because we're almost to an hour and a half points. don't want to run too late for you. So, this example is something that I've personally encountered.

Greg Koukl: that's right

Kathleen Noller: It is something that multiple of my friends have encountered in a university setting with peers. And so, it sounds very extreme as I was writing it. I was like, this this sounds very extreme, but i want listeners to know, maybe folks who are not have been in the universities recently, that this is a very real situation that multiple of us are wondering about. So, the scenario is this. Your peers are buying pride pins for their jackets, and they ask you if you'd like to wear one. You say no, and they tell you that they find you hateful. But when you try to explain your Christian viewpoint on it, on either homosexuality or transgenderism or whatever they're interested in to do with the LGBTQ flag, they say that you are harming them and that it is violent for you to bring up your opinion.

Greg Koukl: Right. Oh, ye I know. You're erasing them is the popular word right now.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: This is very, very frustrating. It is extremely abusive. And ironically, it violates a leftist principle. Right. And so, what I'm going to try to do here is trying to leverage their view against them.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: So, I would say, maybe I'd say, do you think that it is important for people to be authentic? In other words, living the lives that they really believe are consistent with their personal identity. Now, you know that this is at the core of this whole enterprise.

Kathleen Noller: Whom

Greg Koukl: The authentic self is whoever you really believe you are. Today, you could change that mind tomorrow and be someone else, but you could be us today and then ampersand tomorrow or something.

Kathleen Noller: yes

Greg Koukl: I don't know, it's crazy. But okay, you just ask that question. Do you believe that?

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: Do you think that it's inappropriate for somebody to force somebody else's views on someone else?

Kathleen Noller: Well, I think Elizabeth would say, yes, authenticity is very important. It's at the core of what I believe. And, but at the same time, there are certain situations like shouting fire in a crowded theater where it's not appropriate to express your authentic beliefs if they're harmful to someone else.

Greg Koukl: Well, there is a time when it's okay to shout fire at a crowded theater. And when would that be Elizabeth?

Kathleen Noller: When there is fire in a crowded theater.

Greg Koukl: When there's a fire. Okay. So, unless we're facing something like that, I don't see how that illustration applies. Basically, your view is that people ought to be authentic. Is that correct?

Kathleen Noller: Yes, it is correct, unless it is harmful to others.

Greg Koukl: Okay. So, if I told you that for me to say no to your request and it resulted in you or anyone else berating me or kissing me or erasing me, then would you say that's an example of that attitude being harmful to me?

Kathleen Noller: I would say it is harmful to you, but it's overall in pursuit of the greater good. So, I would say it's for the safety of the rest of the people in the room.

Greg Koukl: Okay, so what you're asking me to do then is to be inauthentic to myself. Let me ask another question. This goes along with it. What do you call a person who is a Christian who has one set of convictions but does not live according to those convictions?

Kathleen Noller: a hypocrite.

Greg Koukl: Okay, good. So, what you're asking me to do is be inauthentic, inconsistent with my deepest beliefs and hypocritical to satisfy what you think is the greater good, which isn't quite clear to me how me doing all those things by wearing your pin is going to advance some fabulous good. Can you clarify that for me?

Kathleen Noller: Well, maybe it's more important for me to try to change your mind. So, if by berating you, I can shame you or convince you to adopt my point of view, that's the tact I'm going to take. I'll just kind of sit up now because we've both had our say, Elizabeth, and I'm not going to take your pin.

Greg Koukl: I'm not going to take your pin because I don't want to be a hypocrite. And I'm not to your pin because I don't think if I did, it's going to do anything but make you feel better because you've used your power and threats against me to do what you wanted me to do. There's no good reason for me to do that. And nothing good is going to come out of this, except for it'll make you feel victorious over me. So, I'm not going to do that at all. But I want you to see what I'm trying to help you to see is that all your techniques and methods, if used consistently against you, would infuriate you and you would never consider it legitimate.

Kathleen Noller: It's such a tough conversation to have.

Greg Koukl: Yes it is, but I want to add something here.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: And this is something... Now I got this from William Lane Craig, but it's something that we all should have right front and center and not have to hear it from some special guy. He was asked once, he does a lot of debates, okay? He's probably the best-known Christian philosopher in the world and he's debated everybody, you know, from Christopher Hitchens on down, and except for Richard Dawkins who won't debate him.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah. Oh, right. I know that.

Greg Koukl: Yeah. Oh, no, he refuses to debate Bill Craig. In any event, he gets pushed back and stuff like that. And so, he was asked once why, and I was there for this discussion. said, what do you do when people are so mean to you and harsh to you and persecute you? Who? Aid, well, this is easy to answer. I rejoice.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: because that's what Jesus said to do in Matthew. Rejoice when others say all kinds of mean things and nasty things and persecute you for my name's sake, for great is your reward in heaven. Now that's something I don't think enough about.

Kathleen Noller: yeah

Greg Koukl: But I think part of our posture here is in the kinds of circumstances that we were just discussing, part of our posture is that ah we want them to agree with us. We want to be able to dodge the abuse that we're going to get for holding our views. And if we can get them to agree with us, they won't abuse us. But if we say that, or we say that, or they say that, they're just going to get mad at us and abuse us. Ye absolutely.

Greg Koukl: Deal with it.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: And what Bill says is to deal with it. It means that we have got a positive angle. Rejoice and be glad. It's Matthew, part of the Beatitudes. It's one of the last ones.  But it's sometimes we just must accept that we are not going to fit in and there are going to be people who just there're going to be people who dislike us because of our faithfulness to the truth. And not just to the truth in the abstract, because the other Elizabeth was trying to be faithful to the truth in her nihilism.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: But the truth for us is not just facts, but it's a person about which there are true facts that make all the difference.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, absolutely.

Greg Koukl: And sometimes we just must accept that and be comfortable with that.

Kathleen Noller: then

Greg Koukl: Just be comfortable. It's not going to work out. People are going be mad. Yes well, you're a bigot. You're a this, you're that, you're the other thing. Well, I'm none of those things, but I understand why you'd say that. Because that's all you have to say. You don't have anything else to contribute but name calling.

Kathleen Noller: yeah

Greg Koukl: So, I can say a smile on my face. It's all right. I can live with that.

Kathleen Noller: that takes a lot of courage to do and a lot of confidence in the lord, a lot of assurance in the lord yeah

Greg Koukl: yeah, I think this is one thing that it would be good for all of us Christians to reinforce and but especially this last one, and I made this decision a long time ago, and I encourage people to do that, especially younger people. You must decide where you're going to stand. And if you have good reasons to stand with Christ, then you stand with him. And you are willingly and in a certain sense, joyfully accept the abuse. Because that is the model of the early church. You read, Paul, you know, I’m just thinking of acts chapter or, you know, the church rejoiced. To have the privilege of being persecuted for the name of Christ. Now, look, I get that. That's not always easy to do. But if you it does make a difference, I think, if you get settled in yourself and you say, these people are going to be mad at me. These people are going to call me names. I know I'm not those things then be confident in that and just let them let it roll off.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: It gets easier. Sometimes it's hardest with people who are close to you, family members, spouses, I get that because you're more emotionally invested. But at some point, we must do that. We just must be willing to be the persona non grata. You know to be the person who's not welcome in your group. But if one has the confidence that they are pursuing Christ-like behavior and character, and we know why not those things. though This is why, did I mention this in this interview? We don't use harsh rhetoric. We don't need rhetoric because we have an agent.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: The people who do that stuff, which is abusive, that's name-calling. All right? Ad hominem. Because they don't have an agent.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: And so, when we see that, and that's i kind of the way I ended my conversation with Elizabeth, though, in that, it says this is all you have. This is all you have. And now, I want to also offer this. When you're under the pressure of the argent itself, we're role playing as a very controlled circumstance. Okay. And you're very nice Elizabeth to me. All right. But it's not always that calm and cool and collected and it doesn't always go smoothly.

Kathleen Noller: moving

Greg Koukl: So, I had ah a conversation in September on a podcast, a very million subscribers, one of the huge podcasts, a diary of a CEO. And sitting across from me was Alex O'Connor.

Kathleen Noller: I saw this, yes.

Greg Koukl: Okay, you saw this. So there, you know, when you're under pressure, then it's not as easy to come up with the things that you want to come up with. and I've thought of a bunch of stuff I wish I had said, but I did that afterwards.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: And so, we made some...

Kathleen Noller: Isn't that always the case? Yes.

Greg Koukl: Yes, it's the fog of war. You know I think I know I acquitted me adequately in that circumstance, but it was a very tough circumstance, but Alex O'Connor is very, very sharp, and he's only years old.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: But I'm just acknowledging for those watching, having a role play like this can demonstrate different ways to do this, but in the heat of battle, as if it were, the fog of war, It's not always so easy, but at least you have a plan. You have a way of maneuvering and everything. Don't be too hard on yourself when you're in these interactive circumstances. They've just become harder and because of the intensity. And the gamesmanship that's going on, and you may not always be able to counter. And then you notice from that conversation that Alex was very clever and very aggressive and so you do the best you can with what you have, and then you learn from that experience, and you're better prepared for the next time. But given those circumstances in that more controlled environment of me and Elizabeth having a conversation that that gives a good it's a good illustration of how one might proceed in these very, very difficult.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: Circumstances. Now, if somebody, I mean, a very simple way out of them handing you the pen, you can say, no, thank you. Big smile. No, thank you. I'm trying to quit. Notice it's kind of a crazy joke, but no, thank you. And then just keep moving.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: And then you are just in a graciously gracious way of confrontation. These are not people characteristically that are interested in changing their mind. These are these harder cases. But do you know who Rosaria Butterfield is?

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: Yeah. Okay. So, you know her story. So, she was a very militant atheist in the academy, PhD in gender studies. I don't know what it was. And she ended up being one to Christ through a pastor who just had her and her significant other, right?

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Greg Koukl: Over for dinner once a week for two years. Hospitality. And little by little. And now she is an absolute warrior for the faith, has written three books.

Kathleen Noller: She really is.

Greg Koukl: The latest one is that I think is titled...Something comes with a house key. What is it? Evangelism comes with a house key or something like that.

Kathleen Noller: I'm not sure.

Greg Koukl: But it’s just trades on this idea that sometimes the way into a person's life is this slow, loving, noncombative approach. Back to Tim Keller.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: You know, and that whole issue.

Kathleen Noller: yes

Greg Koukl: So.

Kathleen Noller: It's all coming together. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us and going through these scenarios with me. I think folks will find this very edifying, very helpful.

Greg Koukl: I enjoyed so much talking with you, and I love this conversation.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Greg Koukl: and the organization i work for is called Stand to Reason, and you can get the book there if you want to go There's lots of stuff there that will help people with a lot of this that just easy to download, no charge, whatever. But if you want to get the book, my recommendation, don't tell me myself I said this, but just go to Amazon. You'll have it tomorrow at a bargain price, but get the book if you haven't, because it'll make a huge difference in your ability to engage.

Kathleen Noller: Nice. Yes. For those listening in, we're going to put the book and all the resources that we've talked about in this episode in the show notes. So, you can go there and get the resources there. Thank you so much for listening to the Kathleen Noller podcast, and we'll see you next time.

Thank you so much, Greg, for joining us.

Greg Koukl: Oh, you're so welcome.