Resources for Further Study:

• Wrestling with Job: Defiant Faith in the Face of Suffering by Bill and Will Kynes.
• The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis
• A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis

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The Questioning Belief podcast explores objections to Christianity through in-depth discussions with experts. Drawing from her background as a former atheist and her experience in apologetics, Dr. Kathleen Noller invites you to explore thoughtful responses to serious questions about faith. Learn more.

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Explore written reflections from Dr. Kathleen Noller and get in touch with her through her Substack, The Reformed Gadfly.

Transcript

Kathleen Noller: Welcome, I'm your host, Dr. Noller, former atheist turned Christian and biomedical scientist. Thank you for joining me as we interrogate Christianity to see if it can stand up to our toughest objections. On today's episode, Dr. Bill Kynes and I tackle the following objection. We live in a world where children die of cancer, women are raped and murdered, and villages are wiped out by natural disasters. Either God is good and merciful, but powerless to stop evil; powerful, but not good or merciful enough to want to stop evil; or his definitions of goodness and mercy are wildly different from ours.

You walk up to the pearly gates, and you are confronted by God. What will Stephen Fry say to him? I'd say: bone cancer in children—what's that about? How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It's not right. It's utterly, utterly evil. Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world which is so full of injustice and pain? And you think you're going to get in, but I wouldn't want to. I wouldn't want to get in on his terms. They're wrong. Because the God who created this universe, if it was created by God, is quite clearly a maniac—totally selfish. We must spend our life on our knees thanking him. What kind of God would do that? Yes, the world is very splendid, but it also has insects whose whole life cycle is to burrow into the eyes of children and make them blind. They eat outwards from their eyes. Why? Why did you do that to us? You could easily have made a creation in which that didn't exist. It is simply not acceptable. It's perfectly apparent that he is monstrous and deserves no respect whatsoever. The moment you banish him, your life becomes simpler, purer, cleaner, more worth living.

Kathleen Noller: So, to discuss this monumental objection, let me introduce our speaker. We have Dr. Bill Kynes. He holds an MDiv from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and a PhD from Cambridge University. He served as a senior pastor of Cornerstone Evangelical Free Church in Annandale, Virginia, from [year] to [year]. Dr. Kynes has authored many books, including Seven Pressing Questions, A Christology of Solidarity, and he co-authored a book with his son, biblical scholar Will Kynes, which is very much of interest to our discussion today, and it's titled Wrestling with Job: Defiant Faith in the Face of Suffering. Dr. Kynes, welcome, and thank you for being here.

Bill Kynes: Ah, it's good to be with you. Good to be with you, although this is a very challenging topic you have raised for us.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, very challenging and one that I've grappled with many, many times, continues to be interested in today, and I think our listeners will have also grappled with it at some point in their lives too, so I'm really looking forward to it.

Bill Kynes: Yes, absolutely. It's something that no one can avoid. And as a pastor, it was one of my primary responsibilities to help people deal with this very question, because suffering is so much a part of human life.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Bill Kynes: And no one can escape it.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Bill Kynes: Everyone must deal with it. And I think Christianity provides the resources to deal with the reality of suffering better than anything else I know. I will say this, though: I don't think there's a final answer for us, but there is a way of understanding how we're to live in the light of the reality of suffering and pain. And there's a difference.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, exactly. I think it's something that everybody, like you said, is inescapable. Everyone will deal with it. If they haven't already, they will be at some point. And I think Christianity provides a beautiful way for us to ask the question “why” in a very godly way and feel close to God amid suffering. So, in our discussion today, I'm planning to address three contributing factors that I've picked out to the human perception and response to evil, which I'm calling roughly the intellectual, the biblical, and the heart components. So, I'd like to start with the intellectual and leading into the biblical components and just make sure we're on the same page about our fundamental understanding of evil before we dive into very detailed biblical narratives. So my first question for you is about the definition of evil. Some say it's an antipodal being too good. Some say it's the absence of good. Some say it's anything which causes suffering. So how do you, as a Christian and a pastor, define evil?

Bill Kynes: Well, I would say evil is that which causes harm with a malicious intent. I think I would include both of those elements to it. I would make it very clear, as a Christian, I don't see evil as a thing that God creates. Evil is a privation. It is cancer. It's a parasite on the good world that God has created. And I would also want to say that evil ultimately has not a material or ontological basis but is a moral issue. It enters the world through a moral rebellion against the good rule of God. So, I think those are important components of our understanding of evil.

Kathleen Noller: In the book of Job, we see that Job encounters evil in multiple forms. His children die, he encounters a natural disaster, loses his wealth, social standing, has a very painful disease. So do these all fit under that same umbrella? And how do we treat something like a natural disaster? Is that evil in itself? Or are there subcategories of evil that we need to be mindful of?

Bill Kynes: Well, I think the fact that this is a fallen world—this is not the world that God once created. And we know it's not the way it's supposed to be. All the fact that evil has entered into the world through moral beings. And that affects all of creation. So, there is a sense in which even the natural world is not what it is meant to be because of the fallenness, the curse that God has put on his good creation. Now, some natural evil, you could say, relates very particularly to human actions. Some would say that climate change, for example, is a reaction, a response to human choices. I wouldn't say that about all of what we would call natural evil. It's interesting in the book of Job that those moral and natural evils both have, in a sense, their source in the will of Satan. God, in the book of Job, is ultimately responsible for what happens to Job. But the evil takes place through a secondary agent, the Satan, the adversary of God. So I think that's very important to mention as well as we think about agency at two different levels: God who is sovereign over all, and then the moral agents, whether it be spiritual agents or human agents, have a secondary causality that is very real and for which we're responsible, but ultimately doesn't overrule the will of God that operates at a higher point.

Kathleen Noller: And I think that it’s very important to make that connection too. I think a lot of people treat moral evil and natural evil as almost two separate entities. And to note that in the Bible, like you said, in the story of Job, they're both a consequence of what Satan does. And even though it's, you know, God is ultimately in control of that. And throughout the Bible, we just see this constant connection between the physical and the spiritual repeatedly again. I wanted to ask as well, what is the relationship between evil and suffering? I think a lot of people, when they have a barometer for picking out what's evil, look for something that makes a human or an animal suffer. Are they tied together, and are suffering badly in themselves?

Bill Kynes: Well, I would say that there is a sense in which all suffering flows from the fact that this world has fallen, because there wasn't suffering in the beginning, nor will there be suffering as we know it in the end when God recreates this world and there is a new heaven and a new earth and there will be no more weeping or grief or tears. So, in that sense, all suffering relates to the fall of creation. But even within this sphere, you wouldn't say that all suffering is necessarily evil. Suffering can have good purposes. Someone who couldn't feel pain in one of their limbs, for example, is in danger. They couldn't feel a hot pan on the stove, and they could be in danger of burning themselves.

So, pain can have a good purpose. And I think even in the Bible, there is a sense in which God can use suffering for good in human lives. And many people discover that. Not everyone. They say sometimes suffering hardens human hearts, but also suffering can melt human hearts as well. So, there are different ways. C.S. Lewis talked about pain as God's megaphone to get our attention and to drive us to listen to him. So, God uses suffering in all sorts of ways. So, it is a part of the fall. And yet in this life, it has varying implications for how we approach it.

Kathleen Noller: That's well said. I often think of, since becoming a mother, I think parents will relate to the idea that not all suffering is necessarily harmful for the person who's suffering, and that I have a toddler who throws terrible tantrums and clearly thinks she's suffering at that moment. But the discipline is for her ultimate good. And so that's just a, you know, a silly example.

Bill Kynes: I think it's very true, and it reflects the intention—again, it's not a malicious intent, it's an intent for good, and I think ultimately, God's intentions are always for good.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, yes, exactly. So, I think that our responses to seeing pain, death, suffering, whether we're Christian or not, can really tell us a lot about our moral values and even our philosophical presuppositions about the way that life should be or the way that we think life should be. So first, for the non-Christians that are listening in, I'm sure they each have an instinctual reaction and aversion to death and evil. What can they learn from that that might show them that they maybe have more in common with Christianity than they previously thought?

Bill Kynes: Well, that's an interesting point. And I often think about the fact that the problem of evil is usually directed toward Christians. But really, the problem of evil has another side. Why do we feel that it's a problem? I love the quote from the atheist Richard Dawkins. He put it this way: “In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt. Other people are going to get lucky. You won't find any rhyme or reason to it, nor any justice.

The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” So within that framework, why should we expect there to be justice? Why should we even know that evil is evil? Those kinds of categories don't come up in that kind of world. So the fact that we innately feel that this world is not the way it should be, that there should be justice, eternal justice, I think points to the fact that we're created in God's image and there's something of that moral stamp within us.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, I like that you brought up the Dawkins quote. I was also thinking along the lines of, often think of survival of the fittest. I am a scientist, and I work in cancer research, but based off evolutionary biology alone, why would I dedicate my whole life and fight to keep the physically weak and those with heritable illness alive longer if there wasn't some innate value in human life that I perceived? So, I think that's very true that non-Christians can hopefully see those presuppositions and those assumptions in their reactions to what they correctly recognize as wrong or evil. So, for the Christians and the non-Christians, I suppose, who question God specifically in the face of great evil, where do you think they get the moral standards by which they measure God and find him wanting?

Bill Kynes: Well, I think there is an innate moral sense Paul talks about in Romans chapter 2. It reflects the fact that we are created as God's image. We are in some sense meant to reflect him in the world. And I think that we can deny it, but it is there. And it's part of what gives every human life its value, makes it sacred. So, I think whether we have a philosophical system that supports it or not, people are going to feel it. They're going to feel it deep down. And I think with this question of evil in the world, it reveals that in the human heart.

Kathleen Noller: Folks that are listening to that might be familiar with more secular theories on morality might be familiar with The Moral Instinct by Steven Pinker. And that's something that I really enjoyed reading as an atheist. And I really felt understood by that piece because it does seem like our understanding of wrong and right is an instinct almost. It very much supports that idea of this natural law, this sort of inbred ability that we must tell right from wrong. Where in your pastoral experience do people tend to take the most issue with God's character or morality?

Bill Kynes: Yes.

Kathleen Noller: Did it ever focus on specific character traits or aspects of God's being, or was it just a general objection to a good God?

Bill Kynes: Well, I think it becomes very personal in issues of personal suffering. That's when I think people ask questions: “Why, God? Where are you, God? How could you let this awful thing happen to me?” I think that it becomes very personal in those situations. And I think the book of Job is all about that. As Job himself is wrestling with what appears to him—and even is presented in the Bible—as an unjust situation. Here is a righteous man who suffers enormously. And it's presented in the most extreme way to make that point that we're to enter Job's experience. And he wrestles with God because the God that he knows is not the God that he's experiencing at that time.

And Job goes to God, appealing to God for him based on his own revealed character: “I know that you're a good God. I know that you're a just God. So why is this happening?” And Job's experience is not unique in the Bible. You see that quite often. The Psalms are filled with wrestling. The prophet Jeremiah echoes Job at many points. And then ultimately, you have Jesus himself on the cross saying, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” There's this human experience at that point that feels God-forsaken. And I would point out to, again, this is the C.S. Lewis Institute—you quote as C.S. Lewis, but he had that same experience.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, exactly.

Bill Kynes: In the early 1950s, he wrote a book called The Problem of Pain, where he sought to address this issue intellectually. And then later in his life, he married later in life. And only after being married a couple of years, his wife died of cancer. And he went into a deep depression and grief. And his intellectual answers at that point didn't meet the need of his heart. And he felt abandoned by God. And he kept a very honest journal through that process. He came through it, but it was very much a Job-like experience. And that's not uncommon. And I think the fact that that kind of experience is documented in the Bible says that's okay. That's all right. Life can be hard, and it can be hard to understand the ways of God. But don't give up. Keep wrestling. Keep going to God with your thoughts, your challenges, your wrestling, and persevere. Persevere in faith.

Kathleen Noller: I think that's very important encouragement because I think there are a lot of Christians out there who have very solid theology like Job did and who genuinely love God. And when they encounter great evils are perplexed and still must wrestle with God. And so, I think sometimes it can be a temptation to think if I'm not perfectly at peace and joyful with what God has given me and what has happened, then perhaps my relationship with God is not right or my theology is not correct. So, it's good that we have those examples.

Bill Kynes: Yes.

Kathleen Noller: But on the other side of the coin, what are some of the most common misunderstandings that you have come across as sort of foundational assumptions, theological assumptions that Christians have that influence their response to evil?

Bill Kynes: Well, one thing I would say is that I think our understanding of the holiness of God is very shallow. And this is why some of the things that we find in the Bible difficult for us, because we don't understand the absolute holiness of God. We don't understand how sin is so offensive to him. And we don't understand how God can judge, and even the existence of hell as a permanent judgment seems almost offensive to us. And it flows, I think, from a shallow view of the holiness of God. We think God is too much like us. And, you know, there is some truth to that. I think because God has created us in his image, there is something of our knowledge of God. But to say that his values, his way of viewing things are the same as ours is grossly mistaken.

Kathleen Noller: That's a very important distinction. And so I think we're sort of skirting around the biblical aspect of this problem of pain. And I'd like to dive right in from the very beginning. So, we talked about the definition of evil. And a big question that apologists always encounter is, in a universe where God is creator of everything, is God also the author of evil? And why not?

Bill Kynes: Yeah, that's a very difficult question. In fact, my wife and I teach fourth and fifth grade Sunday school at our church. And that very question was asked by an eleven-year-old just on Sunday.

Kathleen Noller: Wow, very precocious.

Bill Kynes: Yes, yes, absolutely. It is an eternal question. And there are different ways of looking at it. One is what I talked about in terms of God is the ultimate cause of all things, but God creates secondary causes in the world. And there is real moral freedom, moral responsibility that goes with being a secondary cause. And the Bible speaks of the fall of creation, in a sense, was through a moral choice to turn away from God. Now, why God created a world in which that was possible is an ultimate mystery to us. We do not know the answer to that question.

We can speculate about ways in which God uses evil to bring about good. We can talk about how the fact that there is evil in the world can magnify God's grace and mercy in a way that perhaps couldn't be done if there had not been evil in the world. Ultimately, we would have to say that what God has allowed to happen reflects his own wisdom in ways that we can't understand. And you could say, if God were small enough.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Bill Kynes: That we could understand all his ways; he wouldn't be big enough for us to worship. And I think that's important for us to realize. He is omniscient.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Bill Kynes: We are not. We don't see the full picture. We don't see all that takes place. And you know, you began with that: if God were good, he wouldn't allow evil. If he was all-powerful, he would overcome evil. One of the things that's missing in that kind of syllogism is that this world is not all there is. And Christians have a hope of a new world, a hope in which God will show himself to be just and will right all wrong. So that's an element in that kind of secular philosophical argument that's left out.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, it's been probably the most helpful way for me to contextualize my own suffering is to place it in the context of eternity. But now that we are, so let's say, you know, we have fallen, and we're many generations removed from Adam and Eve. So, the second biggest question I often hear about the beginning of the problem of evil is, isn't it unfair that the consequences of their sin affect us so dramatically because we have nothing to do with it? This is something that they did ages ago and then God said, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing,” and then here I am. So how can we explain to somebody that that is not unfair—or is it?

Bill Kynes: Well, it is difficult. And I can suggest some possible ways of looking at it. It doesn't answer the question completely. But one is that we're never as individual and as autonomous as we think we are. We're connected socially in all sorts of ways with others. And the decisions of others affect us all the time. You can think about this on a national level. If our president makes some reckless decision and involves us in some global war, we will be affected by it. So there's this social interconnection that's very real. The other is that God can use representative figures. And the Bible can speak of Adam in a sense as a representative of all mankind, that his actions, in a sense, represent all of us. And you can read Genesis 3 in the fall there, and see yourself, in a sense, replicating the very actions that we see there in Genesis 3.

And it says Adam represents all of us. And then we replicate what is happening in Adam. So, this idea of a representative. Now, the other side of that is the glorious truth that we can be united to a new representative. We can be united to Jesus Christ. And in a sense, every human being is either united to Adam or united to Christ. And it is by faith that we can be united with him such that what is true of him becomes true of us. And so, this sense of, “Oh, isn't it awful that we're united to Adam?” On the other side, isn't it wonderful that we can be united to Christ? So, I think that works both ways. And the other side—that being united with Christ—is a glorious thing.

Kathleen Noller: That is a wonderful thing. Later in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, we do see some of God's justice come forth as he destroys evil humans at many points. He brings a great flood that Noah survives. He destroys Sodom and Gomorrah with the rain of burning sulfur and so on. So oftentimes, I hear the free will defense of moral evil as, well, God gifted humanity with free will. And so, if they happen to sin, then they choose to sin. And God is not going to undo that because he would have to step in and mess with a bunch of people's free will. And he'd have to intervene and put his fingers into the world. But then we see, on the other hand, in the Old Testament, God is destroying some humans for their wickedness. So why doesn't God then destroy all evil? Why did he pick and choose?

Bill Kynes: Yes, I mean, Paul talks about the patience of God. The patience of God is meant to lead us all to repentance. That's the way Paul talks about it. God could have destroyed all evil, and who would be left? Alexander Solzhenitsyn talks about that when he said that he discovered that evil is not out there.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Bill Kynes: Evil is here. And if God were to destroy all evil, who would be left? So, it is the patience of God that allows evil human beings to continue to exist such that they might have opportunity for repentance and to turn to God and find his grace and favor.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Bill Kynes: Why God works in some ways in some people's lives and other ways in other people's lives, that's a mystery that I cannot fathom. But I think the challenge is to receive the invitation, the offer that God gives to us that comes in the gospel, which goes out to everyone.

Kathleen Noller: And can we apply the same sort of logic to spiritual beings? Like the Satan who tried to tempt Job. I often read these accounts of stories like that in the Bible where folks are saying, why does God allow fallen spiritual beings to not only live—he doesn't destroy them—but he gives them such a great potential influence over humanity. Why does he permit that? And why do they get such a wide—or I guess a long—leash to affect all his children?

Bill Kynes: Yeah, I mean, I think that ultimately comes down to the same question: why God allows evil to be in the world at all. As for spiritual beings, I think the early church wrestled with that question. And Origen, for one, thought it possible for Satan to be redeemed. But that view was rejected by the church. There is a difference between spiritual beings and human beings. Human beings alone are the ones who are described as in the image of God, embodied in creation in that way, reflecting to God within his creation, his glory. So, I think there is a difference, and in God's wise providence he hasn't chosen to reveal that he would redeem spiritual beings. And in fact, Jesus talks to the contrary. He talks about hell being a place reserved for Satan and his demons.

So yeah, I think they're treated differently in the Bible. As to why they're allowed, again, it's part of, in a sense, when human beings are cast from the garden, as we see in Genesis, they're cast into a fragile world that is full of dangers and threats. And in some sense, that is part of the mercy of God. Because in this world, he wants us to turn to him. If we could be completely satisfied and happy and joyful in this fallen world, we would never need him. We would never turn to him. So, in some sense, the frailty of this world, the danger of this world, even the suffering of this world, is meant to call us back to himself. That's one of the reasons we could posit for why God allows evil to exist in the world.

Kathleen Noller: And how many of us have prayed more fervently when we find ourselves in trouble? I know that I do. And I find it very disconcerting that evil drives me closer to God.

Bill Kynes: Yes

Kathleen Noller: That's personally how it's worked in my life, which—it's wonderful to be driven closer to God, but also makes me very, very nervous for how God might use punishment in my life.

Bill Kynes: Yes.

Kathleen Noller: But going back to the Old Testament destruction of the wicked peoples, I'll just read a verse from 1 Samuel 15, when God commands King Saul to kill the Amalekites, saying, quote, “Utterly destroy all that they have and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” This is very much nationwide focus on all of these people. Why does God in the Old Testament focus on nations and even destroys animals who are not performing evil deeds within this nation? How can we look at this example and understand that a good God is behind it all?

Bill Kynes: Yes. And this is a very difficult thing for us to, in our moral framework, begin to grasp. And I struggle with it myself. It does seem very difficult. Again, I would point to, first, the fact that God is holy. And he has a right to deal with his creation as he wants. So, there is a sense in which it is God's prerogative. And then the fact that he was creating a new nation through which he would bring blessing to all nations meant that he was dealing in a national way, in a way that he doesn't deal that way now, as he's dealing through the church, which is not a national entity at all. So, there was the creation of a nation, a nation-state that was under the governance of God himself, a theocracy. So that entailed certain things in that context that certainly don't apply today. And the reality that this nation is to be a holy nation is to be a separated nation, a nation devoted to the Lord himself and somehow to reflect his glory, his holiness to the world. I think that goes into understanding some of that. But I do find it very difficult. I admit that. And I think many people do.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, I think the holiness piece is key there. And to remember that it's not a, you know, we can't apply the hyper-individualism of today to the Old Testament. But I think another key concept that folks bring up again is predestination. So, I'd like to shift into talking about God's will and God's plans for humanity. Christians will often say to one another when we're facing trying circumstances, “God is in control.” And I've never found that comforting in the short term because we know God was in control when Jesus was killed. So, I think this phrase can be easily misunderstood. And I think the wrapping, you know, the idea of predestination and whether God predestines bad things to happen can get really confusing even for the staunchest Christians. So, I'd like your help in defining exactly what it means for God to be in control, especially in the face of evils.

Bill Kynes: Well, the episode in the Gospels that comes to my mind is when Jesus approaches the tomb of Lazarus. Jesus delays his coming so that Lazarus would have been dead by the time he gets there for at least three days. And when he comes, it isn't, you know, “Don't worry. This is all predestined. I've got my plan.” No, instead, he's deeply moved. And the word that's used there in Greek is a very powerful one. It was used of horses snorting. I mean, he was angry with what he saw as he looked at the grief of those around him and saw the ravages of sin, moral evil in the world that brought about death. And all its consequences. So, Jesus could be angry at what he saw without opposing the will of his Father. Christians have a bifocal lens as they look at the world. We can see the goodness of God's creation, but at the same time, we can see the fall. We can understand the sovereignty of God who overrules all things, and yet we can still see the reality of evil as it unfolds in all its various aspects, from malicious human acts to the consequences of evil in the broad sense, the fact that we live in frail bodies that will die, that we live in a world in which there are tornadoes and hurricanes and earthquakes that are devastating. So, all of that—there is a sense in which the sovereignty of God, though, as you say, may not in the short term provide comfort. In the long term, it does. Because it's the sovereignty of God that can give ultimate meaning to the suffering that we endure.

Without that, God is as helpless as we are. This is Harold Kushner's God. You know, when bad things happen to good people, God gives people freedom, and he doesn't know what's going to happen. So, he's just as distressed about the awful motorcycle accident as you are. Well, Elie Wiesel, the Holocaust survivor, said if that's who God is, he ought to retire and let someone more competent take his place. Ultimately, there is comfort in knowing that God is sovereign, that God is big enough to work through the evil of this world, the suffering that I endure, to ultimately bring something good out of it. Ultimately, that is a comforting thought. But I agree with you in the short term. And I don't think it's good when you are trying to console someone in suffering to say, “Oh, well, you know, God works for good in all things for those who love him and are called according to his purpose.” No, no, no. That's—don't give someone a theology lecture at that point. Don't just spout Bible verses. Come alongside, give them comfort first and foremost. And then as time allows and as time goes on and there is an element of healing, then help people get the bigger picture of God's sovereignty, God's ultimate control, that we don't understand his ultimate purposes in the events of our lives, but we can trust him amid it. And that's, I think, where Job came after God revealed himself in those divine speeches toward the end of the book.

Kathleen Noller: And we'll touch more on that later as well on how to console other people and how to practically walk through those valleys of the shadow of death by yourself or with other people who are suffering. So, we'll touch on that later as well. For those who are interested in that nugget of wisdom and want to expand on it. But I want to go back to the concept of predestination quickly before we move on and just ask—for those who are the philosophers in the room—is does predestination mean that God actively determines events that are to happen? Does he just stamp his approval?

Bill Kynes: Well, I think the Bible affirms two things: that God is sovereign, that nothing happens apart from his ultimate will, but that we are responsible moral agents in the world. You know, it's often said, “I must believe in free will. I can't believe otherwise.” We know life to be that way, that we are responsible moral agents in the world. And, you know, I think we're dealing on two different levels in terms of God's will and our will, such that we don't really understand how they fit together. It's almost like light being particles and a wave. They seem contradictory, but at some other level, they coexist. And I think ultimately, that's how we must understand God's sovereign will and our human will as somehow be coexisting in the same universe, but on different levels. God is outside the universe. He's the author of all things. We're characters within it. So, we can't just see those two kinds of will operating on the same level. And I think that's how we must live.

Kathleen Noller: Is it a fair summary to say that God's sovereign will is always done, but his conditional will regarding the little particulars of things—that it says, you know, the Holy Spirit can be grieved by our sins or things like that, things that God doesn't want to happen, evils in our world—that that's not God's will?

Bill Kynes: I think theologians have often tried to make distinctions within the will of God: God's will of decree, which is his ultimate that will happen, and then God's will of permission is one way of what God allows to happen. You know, again, I think we see that in the book of Job. God is ultimately responsible, but Satan is the secondary agent who maliciously inflicts evil on Job. But in the book, Job knows that God is ultimately the sovereign that he is. So that's where he goes. He doesn't—his answer is not found in Satan, but in God.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Bill Kynes: And God could say, “Oh, no, I had nothing to do with it. It was all Satan.” No, God doesn't say that. God says, “I allowed this, but you're not going to understand it. And you never will, not in this life, but understand I am far greater than you can ever know.” And that's the questions that he addresses Job with. And again, I think ultimately, we must trust that God knows more than we do about what is good and ultimately for his glory. And I think as we come to trust God, we see that what is for his glory is also ultimately for our good. And those two ends are not in competition with one another but joined together as we enter relationship with him and trust him.

Kathleen Noller: I always love the verse that God will use evil for good. But we can know, I think at the very least, I think a Christian would admit that suffering isn't random or meaningless. We may not know, like you said, what God's going to use it for, how he's going to work it for good, or what's going to happen in the broader woven context of our lives. But we often hear, right, that God will use evil for good, but who’s good is this? Is this the good of those who love him? Is this the best for everyone? And what about those who don't love him?

Bill Kynes: Well, this is the ultimate divide, isn't it? Between those who turn to him in repentance and faith and those who continue in their rebellion against his goodness and truth and beauty. Paul talks about the fact that the knowledge of God is available to everyone so that we're without excuse. So, creation itself speaks of the power of God and the existence of God. So those who turn away from him—and again, in C.S. Lewis's term, in the end, there are only two kinds of people: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done.”

Kathleen Noller: Yeah. 

Bill Kynes: Do you want to live in the presence of God for eternity? Do you want to offer him the worship that is his due? Or do you want to maintain your own rule of your own life? Do you want to be God yourself? That's the ultimate dividing line, isn't it? And God ultimately will turn away from those who do not turn to him. And that's what we call hell in all the various dimensions of it. And what is the good of hell? Theologians talk about it in different ways. In one sense, it displays the righteous judgment of God. In another sense, you could say that hell magnifies the mercy of God for those who escape it.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Bill Kynes: But in any event, we must trust that the God of all the earth shall do right. Because if God doesn't do what is just, how can there be justice at all? That's the ultimate question.

Kathleen Noller: I'd like to ask you a particular question and follow up to that: what happens with children before the age of reason, or just to simplify, let's say infants, because they are all born with original sin. So, they have inherited guilt. And then they also cannot at least consciously follow Christ. And so where do they stand in this dilemma?

Bill Kynes: Yes, I mean, it's not a question that the Bible deals with very clearly. You know, the salvation of children and infants is not a clearly addressed question, but you do get hints. You do get hints in the fact that King David's child born to Bathsheba—when David says, “I will not see you here, but I will see you there,” in the sense that he senses that he will see this child again—it's a hint of God's saving purpose. Jesus' own embrace of young children is a hint of God's care for the weak and the powerless. That's the kind of God that he is. So, we entrust their fate to a wise, just, gracious, loving Father. And there's no better place to be than that. So, I think that's the kind of answer I would try to give to a person in that situation. And my wife and I were in that situation. We lost a child stillborn at six months' pregnancy.

Kathleen Noller: I'm so sorry.

Bill Kynes: And we entrust that child to the loving hands of a just and good God.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, it's one of the hardest questions for me, and it's such a particular question. But it's one that, like you said, the Bible doesn't have a lot of verses on it. And so, it's one that you almost must go off your presuppositions and your trust and infer the answer to it. What do you think of the—we have the Western idea of original sin where humans inherit our sinful nature but also the guilt from Adam versus the Eastern Orthodox concept of ancestral sin where humans don't inherit direct guilt. That seems to resolve this question, but I'm not Eastern Orthodox so I don't know many details about it, and I was just wondering what your opinion is of the original sin versus ancestral sin concept.

Bill Kynes: Well, I think one thing that plays in my mind is Paul's juxtaposition of sin and death. That in a sense, death is a consequence of sin. And if there was no sin in a person's life, there would be no death. And we all die because we all sing. That's what he says in Romans 5. So, I think it's better to see that God can deal with human sin as he wills, even in those that are unconscious or unable to respond in a conscious, moral way. Those people can be covered by the gracious work of Christ on the cross. God can do that. And so that's probably the way I would try to resolve that.

Kathleen Noller: I'd like to discuss some of God's promises. There are several verses in the Bible which seem to promise earthly rewards to the godly man. Proverbs are commonly cited ones. It says, “To fear the Lord and shun evil, this will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones.” How do we reconcile these verses with the story of Job, the blameless and upright man who, you know, fears God, shuns evil, and then has all these terrible things happen to him?

Bill Kynes: Yeah, I mean, I think there is blessing that can come even in this world through living a godly life. I think living according to the grain of the universe can bring blessings. I mean, I think that moral virtues can bring blessings to this world. Things like self-discipline, delayed gratification, these some of these moral virtues, caring about others more than yourself can bring all sorts of social benefits. So, there is blessing in this world that can come. But also, I think there is the reality that there is a blessing in the world to come that is far greater than whatever we can gain in this world. “The sufferings of this world are not worth comparing to the glories that will be ours,” Paul said. The Apostle Paul had all kinds of suffering, which he talks about in several places in his letters. But he has a great hope that the blessing of God that is to come will be far greater than anything we could enjoy in this life. So, I think there can be blessings in this life. But I think that the hope of the gospel is one that goes well beyond anything we can enjoy in this life.

Kathleen Noller: Well said. I'd like to move into the heart component that I mentioned in the beginning to talk about our response to suffering and our ways to minister to others amid great suffering. So, my first question is just that: how do we help people and walk alongside them amid great suffering?

Bill Kynes: Well, you can see the negative example that's given in the book of Job, where his friends, well-intentioned, come to comfort him. But then they end up in a theological debate.

And I think their problem is they don't appreciate the human dimension of Job's suffering. They're not attentive to the needs of his heart as he's going through what is happening. In a sense, they come as philosophers. They're kind of in an armchair discussion rather than dealing with someone in a wheelchair. I think that's the fundamental problem. They don't empathize; they theologize. So, I think that the first thing is just to be present, to be patient with someone in their situation. Don't try to correct anything that they may say that seems out of bounds theologically. Be patient. This is the kind of reaction that someone may give in this kind of thing; be sensitive to them. And there's nothing like presence really. And I think being humble and don't try to give answers that you don't really have.

There were no answers to Job's suffering, not from a human perspective. There were none. And we shouldn't try to give answers when we don't have them. I think being practical—how can I help you? Bringing meals, whatever it may be, finding ways to help people when they're suffering is important. And then finally, I'd say, be prayerful. Pray for them. Pray for them. And again, I would quote C.S. Lewis. He writes in that book The Problem of Pain. He's talking about how to deal with suffering. He's giving intellectual answers, but then he writes this: “For the far higher task of teaching fortitude and patience, I was never fool enough to suppose myself qualified, nor have I anything to offer my readers, except my conviction that when pain is to be borne,

 Bill Kynes: A little courage helps more than much knowledge. A little human sympathy, more than much courage. And the least tincture of the love of God, more than all.” And I think that's what people most need and most want: some sense that God is with them, that God is going to see them through, that God somehow has a purpose and a meaning in what they're going through, even if they can't understand it or won't understand it. So, I think praying for people such that God would come and meet their need—that's the ultimate form of comfort that a human being can have.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, the prayer is so powerful. I converted to Christianity later in life. And that is an incredible blessing and gift that Christians can give others, even if they're not Christian and they say yes to having you pray for them.

Bill Kynes: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: It's just amazing. I don't know if people who have grown up in the church really realize how powerful it is and how touching it is to have somebody talk to God on your behalf and ask the ruler of the universe to please help you.

Bill Kynes: Yeah, yeah.

Kathleen Noller: It's just the most loving thing in the world. And then, of course, if you believe in that God and you believe that he can answer, then it becomes, in addition to loving, very practical and helpful too. So, for the person who is suffering themselves, as C.S. Lewis notes, sometimes suffering does lead people away from God. Sometimes it doesn't bring them closer to that prayer relationship. So how should those people, if they're noticing they're amid the suffering and they're drifting, do what they should do?

Bill Kynes: I think the first thing that comes to my mind is to be honest. Honest themselves. Honest with their feelings. And take that honesty to God. Again, you see this often in the Bible—the book of Psalms. I've encouraged people to read Psalms and understand themselves and use some of the words of the psalmist as their own as they wrestle with God.

Kathleen Noller: And I really...

Bill Kynes: So, it's being honest and being honest with God. That would be my advice to them. But also, I think it's, you know, Christians alongside them, loving them, being the presence of God in their lives can be very powerful as well.

Kathleen Noller: I really appreciated the chapter in your book—or the paragraph in your book—on petitionary prayer and what Job teaches us about that. And that was very compelling for me. And so, for our listeners, how can we go about praying for a restoration of earthly goodness without feeling like we're using God or we're trying to use our relationship and our connection to him to get something material or something earthly?

Bill Kynes: Well, I think we're encouraged to pray for the needs of our lives. The Lord's Prayer he taught his disciples to pray includes, “Give us this day our daily bread.” It isn't a prayer for coverage as well. It's “Lord, meet my need, meet my need.” And sometimes in praying that, we recognize that our wants are not necessarily our needs, and God can use that. But we're needy people. We're children before our father, and he wants us to come to him. And sometimes in our praying, our desires can be changed through the process of praying. But again, being honest with God, coming to him, and including the beginning of that Lord's Prayer: “Become our Father, become his children before him,” but then it directs us to his glory, his holiness: “May your name be hallowed holy in the world, may your kingdom come, may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” And it's a recognition that God's will is good—it is good—and we need to trust that. So, all of that's involved in praying. And we ask God for things, but I think we're changed personally in the process of praying as we pray in that way that the Lord Jesus taught.

Kathleen Noller: I'm praying that our wills are aligned to his as well. I think that the biggest question that you identified in this book and that Job asks and many of us ask in the face of suffering is often a “Why?” Does God ever answer us? And how can we grapple with the fact that we may not receive a direct answer to that question?

Bill Kynes: Sometimes God gives us partial answers in the sense that sometimes we see good things coming out of our suffering. And that gives us some sense of, yeah, I can understand something of this. Again, the ultimate answer to why there should be a world in which there is evil at all is beyond us. Evil, when you think about it, is irrational in the ultimate degree. Why would it ever be rational to oppose the will of a good, gracious, beautiful, true God? There's no good reason. There's no explanation for that. So ultimately, evil has to be inexplicable with our mind. But that “why” question is so difficult. And Job never receives an answer to that. But in a sense, God is glorified through Job's faith, his faithfulness.

And we can glorify God in ways that we don't even realize. You know, in the book of Job, there's this heavenly audience that's looking on and saying, “Is there such a thing as real devotion to God? Is God worth it, worthy of our worship, even if he doesn't bestow his material blessings on us?” And in Job's case, God is glorified through the fact that he holds on in faith. He is comforted, even though he doesn't understand why it all happened. And there's a sense we can participate in that. We can somehow bring glory to God as we hold on in faith and trust that he is indeed good, that he is indeed just, that he does know what he's doing, even though we don't understand. That brings glory to God. And there can be some comfort, some sense of satisfaction, even in that, I think.

Kathleen Noller: That's a very beautiful and weighty ending. And so, I think we'll conclude that. And before we say goodbye, I would like to quote C.S. Lewis, as we've been doing throughout, quoting The Problem of Pain. I pulled one here that I particularly like. So, here's the quote from C.S. Lewis: “The problem of reconciling human suffering with the existence of a God who loves is only insoluble so long as we attach a trivial meaning to the word love and look on things as if man were the center of them. Man is not the center. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake. ‘Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.’ We were made not primarily that we may love God (though we were made for that too) but that God may love us and that we may become objects in which the divine love may rest well pleased.” Thank you so much, Dr. Kynes, for your time and for your wisdom today. Thank you for being here.

Bill Kynes: Thank you, Kathleen. It's good to talk to you. Thank you.

Kathleen Noller: And thank you for listening to the Kathleen Noller podcast brought to you by the C.S. Lewis Institute.