Resources for Further Study:

• Christianity Today article by Dr. Slavov
• Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

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The Questioning Belief podcast explores objections to Christianity through in-depth discussions with experts. Drawing from her background as a former atheist and her experience in apologetics, Dr. Kathleen Noller invites you to explore thoughtful responses to serious questions about faith. Learn more.

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Explore written reflections from Dr. Kathleen Noller and get in touch with her through her Substack, The Reformed Gadfly.

Transcript

Welcome to the Kathleen Noller podcast brought to you by the C.S. Lewis Institute, where we interrogate Christianity together to see if it stands up to our toughest objections. I'm your host, Dr. Noller, former atheist turned Christian and biomedical scientist. Let's dive into our objections today. So normally we have one main objection to discuss, but I've listed three for today because I think our speaker's story speaks to all three of them. The first is that Christianity is a religion of Old Testament genocides and martyrdom. Buddhism holds the key to peace through an end to suffering. The second is that people adopt the religion of those in their household or environment. Religion is less about intellectual assent or a declaration of personal fealty and more about the continuation of tradition or conforming to societal pressure. Third is that Christianity is just one of many organized religions and the golden rule of Christianity isn't unique. Look at any other religion and you'll find the same basic tenets and practices even outside of the golden rule. So, to speak to each of these objections, I'll introduce our speaker today.

Dr. Sita Slavov is a professor of public policy at George Mason University with a PhD in economics from Stanford University. He's a research associate the National Bureau of Economic Research and associate editor at the Journal of Pension Economics and Finance and a former associate professor at Occidental College. She has published numerous articles, book chapters, and policy briefs on work at older ages and retirement policy and has testified before Congress on issues relating to Social Security. She has also published op-eds in the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, and most relevant to us today, she wrote an article for Christianity Today in titled, Unable to Find Ultimate in Zen Buddhism, I Turn to Jesus.

Thank you so much for being here, Dr. Slavov.

Sita Slavov: Thanks for having me.

Kathleen Noller: So I think to get started and to explain a little bit of the background of why I'm asking you about these three somewhat distinct but somewhat related objections to Christianity, i would love for you to give us a brief testimony about your conversion and what your religious background was before you became a Christian.

Sita Slavov: Sure. Yeah. So, I grew up in Houston and my parents are Hindu. They immigrated from India. And, you know, as a as a child, I think I had assumed that religion is kind of part of heritage or culture, right? my parents would always put up a Christmas tree and I guess I, you know, they were Hindu and I guess I always saw that as kind of part of my family's assimilation into Western culture where, where many people are at least culturally or nominally Christian.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Sita Slavov: So, I was like, okay, yeah, that's how the melting pot works. And I do still think there's a little bit of truth to that. but when I was maybe or, I started to realize, that, you know, if you believe in objective truth, which I always have,

Kathleen Noller: yeah

Sita Slavov: Then what matters is really finding it. It's not about a tradition that you inherit from your parents or your family. So, you want to find that truth regardless of whether it turns out to be part of your own tradition or somebody else's tradition or no tradition whatsoever. So, I realized religion and religious belief are choices. It’s not the same as culture or heritage, and I have both the right and the responsibility to pursue the truth for myself. So that's kind of when I started identifying as an agnostic. It's like, I don't know the answers and I'm not going to,

Kathleen Noller: Sure.

Sita Slavov: Assent to anything until I you know feel sufficiently convinced. Right And I did kind of have this desire to explore these big questions. I wanted to know, you know why we are here? Does God exist? And if so, what's he like? How do I get to know him? So, I wanted answers. And I would try to find those answers intellectually the same way I look for answers in my research.

Kathleen Noller: sure

Sita Slavov: And I thought, you know, the evidence for Christianity is strong. I wanted to believe it thought it was a beautiful story, but it wasn't definitive proof, and that wasn't good enough for me, or I didn't feel it was definitive proof. And I felt like with something that important, I need more certainty. So, I kind of got to the point where I gave up on using reason and evidence to find answers. Like, I didn't think that was possible, right? So I was kind of a... it's a stronger version of agnosticism right i didn't think it was possible to find answers instead what i did was i found myself drawn to Zen Buddhism because i thought that offered a way to find answers to these questions that did not rely on intellect or reasoning and for many years i practiced Zen Buddhism and you know i think we'll talk about that more as we as we go along in this episode but what were the moment for me when that changed was it was in  when COVID hit. And I had been planning to go to a month-long Zen Buddhist retreat, a meditation retreat, silent. silent And I got canceled and that's when my heart started turning back to God. And, and that was really when, it was,  December of that year that, that I truly, i decided to fully give my life to Jesus.

Kathleen Noller: Wow, what a journey. And I'm very intrigued by the fact that you said that you've always believed in an objective truth or an absolute truth.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: I find that is sometimes the case with people who grew up in ah with a religious background or a religious household because that's the way that they were taught. But then sometimes growing up in a religious household, especially in some places, like Houston, right, where you're seeing a bunch of different cultures mixed that can incline you to pluralism.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: So, what do you think was that drove you to the respect for objective truth as opposed to religious pluralism?

Sita Slavov: Honestly, I think it comes from my academic background. When I do research, I think there's objective truth so I don't know why I wouldn't think there's objective truth when it comes to spiritual questions, right. It's a, it's about discovering it. So, I don't think I've, I mean, I'm not sure I've ever really questioned that.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, I think the research piece of it is something I relate to as a scientific researcher. And while we're in completely different fields, all your research is done with the presupposition that there is some truth that is out there for you to discover. And that if you, for example, if I perform an experiment that under the same conditions, it will be repeatable and there's not this inherent randomness and there's something very discoverable and objective out there.

Sita Slavov: Right. Exactly.

Kathleen Noller: So, you mentioned that in your research, you'd sort of used research methods to try to study Christianity and that that didn't work for you initially.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: Did that not work because you think you were

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: sort of treating it as science?

Sita Slavov: I was treating it too much as a science, right?

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Sita Slavov: And I, something I've come to appreciate is there are other ways to know to know truth besides the scientific method. I mean, the scientific method is great. It’s a very powerful tool, but we can certainly use it to get to a certain point in learning about faith and answering spiritual questions. But, ultimately, for me, faith is about a relationship with God and, and that's not, you know, it's like, it’s like a person you could that any other person, right? you may not be something that really you could publish in a peer-reviewed journal, right?

Kathleen Noller: Yes, exactly. So, something that I hear when whenever that sort of topic comes up, the aspect of the personal relationship or the heart aspect and in a conversion, is that people say, well, if I can't get to Christianity through my intellect or through my efforts, through my studies alone, If there's this missing piece that God has to reach out to me or something unmeasurable and indiscernible has to happen, then how can I be held accountable for my faith?

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And so, what would you how would you talk about that missing piece and how would you relate that to sort of the role that we have in our in our own salvation versus God's?

Sita Slavov: Yeah. I mean, I do think, you know, we, we are here on earth, we have our lives and, we do, I think we have a responsibility for it. to ask these questions and, and to seek the truth. It was Socrates who said an unexamined life is not worth living, of course we can't get fully there on our own.

Kathleen Noller: who

Sita Slavov: But, you know, we need to be, we need to create the conditions. You know, we need to and be open to God leading us

Kathleen Noller: A way that I used to think about as a secular person was that there are these events called black swan events, which are sort of thought to drive.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: one's success or one's life one way or another, that is just rare, out of the blue coincidences that you don't necessarily deserve or prepare for, they just happen to you.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: But for them to happen to you and for you to take advantage of them, you must be prepared to a certain degree, you must be receptive, we do have a responsibility to ask these questions. And if someone is just closed off, and is not asking, is not seeking, they're not going to get that relationship anyway.

Sita Slavov: Yeah, and I can give you an example of that too. It's like the pandemic for me, that was the black swan event, right?

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Sita Slavov: That's like a once in a hundred-year thing. Could not have anticipated that. Why did I find scripture verses coming into my mind? Because I had done some research in the past.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Sita Slavov: I had explored Christianity

Kathleen Noller: Did you always feel a desire for spirituality or tradition or objective truth? What was it, what was it that you were seeking or was it all the above?

Sita Slavov: I think it was objective truth. I mean, I never put too much stock in tradition because I'm like, that that that always seemed kind of, you know, what you're born into doesn't necessarily, that may not line up with the objective truth.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Sita Slavov: So, I always had a desire to know the truth. And I did have a desire to answer these spiritual questions because I think they are the most important questions that as human beings we can ask. So, let's move on to talking about Zen Buddhism. And I would love to hear more about the theology from you.

Kathleen Noller: So, would you be able to explain to our listeners who perhaps are not familiar with Buddhism in general, what are the core tenets of Buddhism and what specifically does Zen Buddhism mean as apart from just general Buddhism?

Sita Slavov: general Buddhism yeah so Buddhism starts with the premise that life is suffering And, you know, some people I've heard some people say that a better translation for that might be dissatisfaction, not suffering. So, life is dissatisfactory.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Sita Slavov: And that's a very relatable premise. I found it to be a relatable premise, right?

Kathleen Noller: yes

Sita Slavov: Because we look for satisfaction in so many ways, like through our careers or through money or travel or wealth or hobbies. And our identity kind of gets wrapped up with those things and ultimately, they disappoint us and they leave us feeling dissatisfied. So, I think that's a very relatable premise. I think we've all experienced this. Even now as a Christian, I do think that this Buddhist diagnosis is insightful. So, if we're looking for points of commonality, this is a good starting place for dialogue and what Buddhism claims to offer is a practical path to reduce the amount of suffering that you create for yourself and others. At least that's kind of the way I saw it. And what attracted me to Zen is that it seemed to offer a path to learning the truth that didn't rely on reasoning or intellectual knowledge right there was no expectation that you affirm certain beliefs, even Buddhist ones.

Kathleen Noller: Okay. Interesting.

Sita Slavov: And that was kind of one of the first questions that I asked when I joined a Zen group. I was like, okay, what do I have to believe? And the answer was basically; you don't have to believe anything. You show up and practice.

Kathleen Noller: interesting

Sita Slavov: And you know, so I basically got to remain an agnostic intellectually.

Kathleen Noller: okay

Sita Slavov: And I saw Zen purely as a practice that could help me move towards answers to the big questions.

Kathleen Noller: and

Sita Slavov: And, you know, from what I could see, I was not the only person in these groups who viewed Zen the same way. So, when you say suffering, is the understanding of suffering, is it more of physical suffering, mental suffering? yeah

Kathleen Noller: Like, how does that relate to image of the self as understood by Buddhism?

Sita Slavov: Yeah, so the image of the self, so based on what I've heard from Buddhist teachers, like a pretty standard view of self might be that we each have like a small self, and that might be our ego, our self-centered self, our self that we see as like separate from other people. And then there's like the larger self, where you're not separate, you're interconnected with everyone and everything else through practice, you'd be able to see that for yourself. And, and that suffering arises from seeing ourselves as separate from others, from being in that small self, that ego driven, driven self. And, you know, in the Zen tradition, you, you, you often meditate on, on a question or, you know what they call a kaon, right. Which is a kind of paradoxical statement that's designed to stump your rational mind and bring you to a deeper realization. And one such question that you might meditate on in Zen is, who am I and I meditated on that question when I practiced Zen, because I think it's fundamental. And, you know, I was hoping maybe I'd get to see this interconnectedness or whatever would lead me out of suffering. But I didn't frankly come to any direct insights about this.

Kathleen Noller: Okay, that's a very interesting question. Who am I? And I can't honestly imagine meditating on that daily for a long period of time without spiraling.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: It's such a complex question. It's very aptly chosen for what they wanted.

Sita Slavov: Totally is. Yeah

Kathleen Noller: But it's also so self-focused in that, obviously, it reminds me of um

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: Tim Keller had this sermon, which I related to a long time ago, where he was talking about, you know, the search nowadays is, who am I?

Sita Slavov: yeah

Kathleen Noller: How do I realize my true self?

Sita Slavov: yeah

Kathleen Noller: And how do I bring that about? And i Buddhism is probably not talking about yourself in terms of your desires. That's probably a, you know,

Sita Slavov: Right.

Kathleen Noller: sort of a modern, like postmodern phenomenon, but that's what Keller was talking about.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And he was saying, you're never going to find a coherent self because you're going to want to be this person one day. And that person, the other day going to feel like this one day, feel like that the other day.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: so, does Buddhism, the self, the ego, is that just, is that something that, so you said you're supposed to transcend it. Is that seen as something inherently bad, the self, or that is that just a neutral that you need to transcend?

Sita Slavov: I think not necessarily. Like my understanding was that through meditation, you would start kind of observing your thoughts and your desires and you would kind of see that they were kind of flaky, like so one day you want one thing, one day you want another.

Kathleen Noller: Okay.

Sita Slavov: And they don't necessarily bear any connection to reality. And through that type of practice, you would start to take your own narrative, your own desires, your own storyline less seriously and kind of see reality for what it is.

Kathleen Noller: Sure. So, you mentioned this, the bigger self that is held in common throughout all people. Is it all living things or just humans?

Sita Slavov: all sentient beings.

Kathleen Noller: And when all the teachers, I'm curious, were telling you, oh, you don't have to believe this seemingly fundamental aspect of Buddhism.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: You don't have to believe this tenet.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: Did that undermine your confidence in it at all? Did you say, oh well, they're clearly not holding to objective truths that they're they want me to hold to as well? Or did that just free you?

Sita Slavov: frankly, I think I was a little confused because it's kind, I was frustrated with intellectual study of what objective spiritual truth might be.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Sita Slavov: Like I felt like that was not taking me, that was not giving me the answers I wanted. So, Zen held this attraction of, okay, I don't have to, you know, you can kind of sidestep your intellect and just kind of practice and get this direct experience. I don't i don't really know what I thought that would be. I use something. But that's sort of what I was hoping for. So, to me, it was ah at the time, it was a relief that I didn't have to believe anything. Like I could just keep being an agnostic. I could do this practice and hopefully someday come to some deeper realizations. yeah, I don't know what I thought that would look like.

Kathleen Noller: And there can be an appropriate time for putting something on the shelf as well. I certainly did that when I was an early Christian for a couple of beliefs that I was struggling with that were not quote unquote salvation matters as much as I don't love that phrase.

Sita Slavov: Yeah, oh, I've done, I've done the same thing.

Kathleen Noller: But yes.

Sita Slavov: So yeah.

Kathleen Noller: Yes. So, you talk about the practice of meditation and the practice of asking those questions.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: What about other practices that relate to other, let's say, sentient beings? Is there, you know, Buddhism is often thought of as a very loving, very peaceful religion in America.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And were there practices that related to other people or other animals that you were taught of how to love them? Or was that less emphasized? Yeah.

Sita Slavov: I think that was less emphasized so a standard, you know, i when I went to the Buddhist group that I practiced with, there was some there was some chanting and that was supposed to be kind of a meditative experience. And then there was sitting in silence and sometimes the teachers would give like a talk at, at the end of, of the practice and meditation retreats kind of had a similar format. There is in ah Buddhism something called the Eightfold Path out of out of suffering.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, So, for those that don't know, so the Eightfold Path is, is like you said, the practical path to ending suffering. It's by cultivating the right understanding, thought, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and concentration.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: So, all these aspects seem impossible to me to achieve by myself.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: Is this a state that's believed to be achievable for a Buddhist layperson, or is this a state only achievable by a Buddhist monk or by very few?

Sita Slavov: That's a great question. And it's a question I had while I was practicing this understanding, I had at the time was that through practice, through hard work, through meditation, I would gradually start to see reality as it is, right? I would start to see myself as interconnected with others. And then when you start to perceive things accurately, you're able to act appropriately in each situation. So, you can achieve the right understanding, right thought, right speech. I didn't see these changes in myself and kind of as a Christian now, what I would say is that the spiritual growth I was striving for came through my own efforts. And, you know, I put in a huge amount of effort for more than a decade. And I think my take-away from it is I don't have it in me. I'm not capable.

Kathleen Noller: I imagine most lay people, if not all, would not be capable. I certainly would not be capable of that on my own.

Sita Slavov: yeah

Kathleen Noller: And, you know, you are a very obviously intellectual and dedicated person as evidenced by your professional achievements. And so, if you can't do that through effort, then, you know, what is the hope for somebody who is perhaps less gifted in those areas or less devoted in those efforts?

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And so, Something, I don't know about you, but something that really drew me to Christianity was the idea that, first of all, it wasn't a performative religion in the sense that my salvation was dependent on my performance or my moral perfection because I was assumed to not be morally perfect, which I am not.

Sita Slavov: Yes.

Kathleen Noller: And then the second was that God would help you, that the Holy Spirit would indwell you and you know give you even the words to and just help you, sanctify you.

Sita Slavov: Yes.

Kathleen Noller: And so was really... it was It's really like through Christ in me, can do things that honor God. and so, is there was there anything in Buddhism where you had some help from other people, the global self, from any other spiritual beings, if there are any?

Sita Slavov: Absolutely.

Kathleen Noller: I don't know if they believe in other spiritual beings. Or was it just yourself?

Sita Slavov: So, guess some Buddhists believe in other spiritual beings. I did not.

Kathleen Noller: Okay.

Sita Slavov: So, this this was not something I ii believed in. There was certainly support from the community, right? But, you know, the community is obviously other imperfect human beings.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Sita Slavov: And yes, there is kind of this notion of this larger self that very different from a personal God. So, you know, at least my understanding of it. So, it's, some i think the way I said it to someone recently was that that larger self not going to chase you down when you're a lost sheep. Buddhism emphasizes the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha as parts of essential parts of practice, right? The Buddha is kind of this larger self-Buddha nature. Dharma is the truth, the teachings and the Sangha is the community, right? So that's where the external help comes from.

Kathleen Noller: Okay, yes. And so, the community, I imagined, was quite strong. And how was the community different, if at all, from Christian community?

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And are there things that you wish Christians would adopt from Buddhist community or vice versa?

Sita Slavov: Well, I loved the community. I mean, I thought that was a great part of, you know, I would go spend time with them on retreats and it was kind of it was almost like, we weren't speaking. We were sitting in silence and there was this kind of intimacy that that kind of grew. And so, the relationships I thought were great. And I think that that is one of the things that maybe we could learn that that kind of living in that tight-knit community.

Kathleen Noller: I have a friend who is a Catholic and goes on silent retreats from time to time.

Sita Slavov: Yes.

Kathleen Noller: I don't know anything about that. And I know as Protestants, we certainly don't have silent retreats. It's very focused teaching. And certain organizations like C.S. Lewis Institute

Sita Slavov: Right.

Kathleen Noller: Lewis Institute are discipleship focused, which we'll get into a little bit later.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: But it's sort of a relational distinction that I really appreciate. It's not you just sitting in a lecture hall.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: and learning how to teach your mind how to love God. It's, it's, it's loving other people as well, growing in your relationships with brothers and sisters as well as you do that. So, you mentioned in thinking about the self, that there's an understanding that the self is not perfect, right? Like you haven't gotten to the end of the eightfold path. You must work at that.

Sita Slavov: Right, we’re works in progress, right?

Kathleen Noller: So is, yes.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: So where does that idea of brokenness come from? And how does that interface, if at all, with an idea of evil

Sita Slavov: Yeah. So evil is not a word I heard a lot in in Buddhist communities. There is this idea of delusion. Like we don't fully, like we kind of see ourselves as separate when we're not, we're interconnected. So, I think that's kind of, that seems to be, or that was my understanding of where, where, where evil, evil actions that cause suffering come from there is this distinction between pain and suffering. And you know pain is inevitable. we you know things happen. You get sick. Suffering is kind of what we layer on top of it with by thinking it shouldn't be that way.

Kathleen Noller: in your Christianity Today article, you said to study the Buddha way is to study the self. That's what your teacher told you. To study the self is to forget the self.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things of the universe.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: So, we have, you know, this phrase forget self in Buddhism and then die to self in Christianity. What are the differences between those two?

Sita Slavov: Yeah. So, you know, this this idea of forgetting yourself, I think my understanding of it was your kind of you practice meditation, you observe your thoughts, you observe kind of how they shift. They don't necessarily bear any connection to reality. And you start to take them less seriously. And then your own kind of thoughts, your own your own kind of small self gets doesn't get in the way as much of you living your life and interacting with others, right? So, you create less suffering for yourself and others. Yeah. I do think there's some connection. there is kind of a surface connection to dying to self, our notion of dying to self as Christian. So, I do think that provides another starting point for dialogue. I do think for me, a key distinction is that in Christianity, we're not just called to die to self, we are also raised with Christ. And for me, that has been key. It's something that I've kind of learned in the past several years of following Jesus is that it's only when I'm focused on God that I have any hope of forgetting myself.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, exactly. And that, yeah, and the physical resurrection too.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: That's an important piece too that I imagine is, yeah, the emphasis on the physical body is quite different.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: So, I want to ask you a couple questions about meditation first before we move on, so You talked about meditation as sort of being perhaps the core practice of your Zen Buddhism. And so, there are so many secular meditation practices today.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: There's transcendental meditation, very popular in corporate America.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: There is, you know, yoga everywhere. And how did your meditative practice differ from what Westerners would understand as meditation from those other secular practices?

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Sita Slavov: Okay, so I think my, the way I see it now is meditation, regardless of what kind of framework you practice it in, is training your attention. You are repeatedly bringing your attention back to a focus or an object of meditation. So as such, it's you know at that high level, it's neutral. It's kind of like doing bicep curls at the gym. It's like you're training mental muscles. It's your attention. And now I've practiced different kinds of meditation. So secular meditation, Buddhist meditation, and biblical Christian meditation. So, the difference I see, the way I see it is in what is the object of meditation and what do you see as the intent ah of meditation? So, in secular meditation, you're often focusing on something completely neutral, like your breath, but whatever the feel of your feet on the floor. And often you have a psychological goal, like reducing anxiety. Or you know if you're doing it in corporate America, it's like improving your productivity. or you have You have certain goals, right? There's no kind of broader spiritual context. In Zen, you might meditate on some of these neutral goals. objects of meditation, but you may also meditate on a kaon or a Buddhist mantra. Zen Buddhists tend to shy away from being goal-oriented, so you're not supposed to get attached to specific outcomes or goals, but I do think many people, and it was certainly true for me, do come in with the goal of spiritual insight. And something I’ve I've gotten a chance to appreciate through the C.S. Lewis Fellows Program is Christian meditation involves meditating on scripture. So in in the year one program, we learned Lectio Divina, Lectio Divina. where we would take a passage of scripture, read it again, you know pausing to pray or reflect on certain words or phrases, or simply sit in contemplation and the goal being to deepen our relationship with God. So those are what I see as the key differences.

Kathleen Noller: Thank you for summarizing those. I'd like to move on and discuss some common misconceptions like about Christianity that you as somebody who has experience in Buddhism, but also Hinduism from your family, i think would be ideal to talk to. The first is that, and we've spoken to this a little bit as Christians are just Christian because of the influence of their parents or their surrounding culture because they live in the West and they grew up in a Christian family.

Sita Slavov: Sure.

Kathleen Noller: So, you have clearly changed a lot from,

Sita Slavov: Yeah

Kathleen Noller: you’re upbringing.

Sita Slavov: And I do think it's certainly true that a lot of people kind of default to their parents' belief system and I think just statistically, you see there's a high correlation.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Sita Slavov: Or they might default to the belief system of the culture around them. So just like I must acknowledge that statistically, that's true. I do think that anyone who is interested in truth does need to think beyond that. And, you know, like I said, I can't imagine going through life without thinking deeply about these questions. And so, you know, that's obviously anyone who needs to do that. And it doesn’t matter what their parents' beliefs are. If they're raised in a Christian home, like you still need to ah to think about those questions and make the faith your own. One of the things I love about the Christian communities that I'm in is the strong emphasis on conversion for everyone. And that was that's been true in the C.S. Lewis Fellows Program, for example. There's this notion that that even someone who's born into a Christian family does need to make the faith their own. So, it's like at the fellows’ program retreat, everyone has a conversion story. And, you know, everybody goes through a process where they enter their personal relationship with Jesus. And I love that as someone who kind of came to came to faith late in life, there's no distinction between like converts and born Christians. We're all the same. And there's a certain equality to that that that I appreciate.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, me too. I also converted later in life and its sort of; I call it kind of the adoption theology is that you are adopted and into God's household as the sons and daughters.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And that is very equalizing and it's very welcoming.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And it's something that, I think is, you know, unique to Christianity and to some of the other missionary religions. You know, Islam is a highly missionary religion converts more people than and any other religion in the world. So, I think to some degree, you know, that perception that you're just whatever religion your parents are. May very well be true for many people, but as we have globalization and as we have a lot of missionaries from Christianity, Islam, even Buddhism, you know, that's starting to shift a little bit so there's a little bit of onus on you, like you said, to start evaluating the truth claims of every single one.

Sita Slavov: Yeah, we do have to, we do have to think about that. I mean, there, there are these competing worldviews and they're not always, you know, you know I know some people like to say, well, it's all the same. It's not, the claims are different and we do have to sort through them.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah, exactly. That was the other objection that we mentioned too, was that all religions are the same. And I've heard commonly that the golden rule is ah is a common thread throughout multiple religions.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And yes, there are details about you can eat pork, you can't eat pork. You can pray in this manner by bowing or doing this, you know, how many, however many times a day.

Sita Slavov: Yeah. you. I mean...

Kathleen Noller: But at the core, most religions are true.

Sita Slavov: I guess currently I think of it as like a Venn diagram. I mean, there's certainly going to be some overlap and there is certainly overlap between Christianity and Buddhism that I've experienced.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Sita Slavov: And, you know, like the prescription to be a good person, maybe that's in the overlap. But I don't think it's fair to say that it's only the overlap that matters, right?

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Sita Slavov: There are aspects of all religions and worldviews that are not part of that. that that that and you know it's it is pretty exclusivist to say you know we do we it's only the overlapping parts of all world religions that matter because you're throwing away a lot of stuff. And that stuff matters too. You do have to think through that.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah, and I think the Venn diagram illustration is so important because in the non-overlapping parts, there are conflicting tenets.

Sita Slavov: Yes.

Kathleen Noller: And so, Buddhism has karma, right? You do good and then you will be rewarded and good things will happen to you while you're on earth, if I have the understanding correctly.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: But then in Christianity, you are taught you will suffer.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: What happens to you on earth does not reflect, you know, like the story of Job.

Sita Slavov: Yeah, absolutely.

Kathleen Noller: Job has every hardship in the world happened to him and he is a righteous man.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And so completely conflicting things.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: Theologies that will affect how you live your life and your understanding of the world.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And too, you know, for any atheists or agnostics that are listening in it's also important to see these overlaps because they show that religion's not just this antiquated phenomenon that, you know, so but people believed long ago and now we can be released from and be more enlightened.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: It's a common phenomenon that transcends culture, time,

Sita Slavov: Totally.

Kathleen Noller: country, everything that people feel and need to be connected to some higher power. And so, you could take that and dismiss it, or you could take that and say, maybe there's some instinct behind that that's common to all of humanity. Maybe that's there for a reason.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Sita Slavov: I agree.

Kathleen Noller: And so, I think we've touched on, you know, the evidence that you mentioned intellectually that have convinced you of Christianity.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: What were some of the most powerful or the most powerful evidence or was it an accumulation of a body of evidence?

Sita Slavov: So, I think it's really an accumulation of a body of evidence you know, I've looked at sort of logical proofs for, you know, the existence of God, for example, honestly, I never got anywhere with those that you try to do like a mathematical proof.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Sita Slavov: That's, that's never worked. The historical evidence, I'd say, is more convincing. Like you really, so the evidence that what the authors of the gospel say happened did happen, I think there's pretty good evidence for that.

Kathleen Noller: Were there any books, if you can remember, any books that really impacted on you those folks who were maybe, you know, in an early stage of their faith or interested in reading?

Sita Slavov: Oh yeah, C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity. I read that when I was in college and that's kind of what really convinced me that, as you know, this is plausible.

Kathleen Noller: It's a classic for a reason.

Sita Slavov: yes

Kathleen Noller: All right, so let's move on to the next objection that I hear often. So, this one comes from my family. I hear this a lot because your church is just a social club. it's there's sort of this perspective that Christians in America don't sacrifice. They don't face persecution like they face in Iran, for example. And so, everyone who's a Christian in America just gets all these benefits. You just get to be the part of this wonderful community and organization where you get to go hang out with your friends and read books together and, you know, sometimes have hors d'oeuvres and do little mission trips and, you know, just have ah have a fun, jolly time and So, know, you coming from maybe a similar perspective as this and seeing that tradition side in your family, how do you see how do you see the church and how do you see the community and the social aspects of it as something strengthening rather than like a self-interest or something vapid?

Sita Slavov: Yeah. Well, I think what makes the difference is, is, is the focus on Jesus in in, church communities.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Sita Slavov: and I, I do think, okay, certainly there are some people who are going to treat their religion as, as nothing more than a social club and,

Kathleen Noller: Absolutely.

Sita Slavov: I imagine there are some Christians who, or people who identify as Christian who may do that. But the Christian communities I've been, my church, the CS Lewis Fellows Program, there's much more to it. I mean, there are the social events, there are the interpersonal relationships, but it's so much more than that. The focus is on God, on getting to know God through scripture, through prayer, supporting one another in our walk with him. And I think that makes a huge difference.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, absolutely. I think the community, if anything, I would hope would be a witness for better or worse, people are going to be watching us and seeing what we do in our community. And is it just a social club or do people actually radically love each other? And do they welcome outsiders? And, you know, those kinds of distinctions, like you mentioned, can sort of move the needle in perspective about whether involvement in church is self-interested or whether it's sacrificing to be part of a bigger community.

Sita Slavov: Yeah. absolutely.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah. So, the last objection i would love to address with you is a tough one is that the Christian God is a genocidal one. So, you came from a religion so focused on transcending suffering. So, what did you think of the Old Testament when you read about the destructions and the quote unquote genocides and the justice of Yahweh?

Sita Slavov: Yeah. I’ll admit this is something I've struggled with. and I think a lot of Christians have. And my pastor likes to tell us, don't read the Bible, study the Bible.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Sita Slavov: So that's what I've been trying to do. It's important to interpret scripture appropriately, to understand the historical context and what the authors were really trying to say. So, I don't have all the answers here. And, you know, this is something I'm continuing to sort of study. But there are a couple of things I do know. With difficult parts of scripture, one thing I've learned is you don't get to just dismiss them because they make you uncomfortable. because it's those parts of scripture that help us grow spiritually, is by, by wrestling with, with that. And to make a connection to my former Zen life, scripture is God's koan and, it's the only koan that, that I have found to be worth taking up.

Kathleen Noller: I like that.

Sita Slavov: So, so I'm still, this is this is something I'm still, still sort of grappling with second, from what I do understand when, if you carefully study those passages in the Old Testament, you will come to understand that God is not genocidal. You would be misinterpreting the passages if you interpret them that way. So, I would encourage anyone who thinks that to dig further. I also think it's super important finally to read the Old Testament through the lens of Jesus. We must place it in the context of brought God's broader plan of redemption for humanity. And as far as transcending suffering goes, Jesus tells us that we have peace in him. He's made us right with God. God's character is revealed in Jesus. And that's something I've experienced for myself. And yeah, so to me, that's, you know, Jesus doesn't promise us an end to suffering. He tells us we will suffer, but he gives meaning to our suffering. He gives us peace amid it. And that's why we see in scripture, like people like Paul writing about the joy and the and the peace they experience, even when they’re in prison for their faith.

Kathleen Noller: That's a very good point. And I love the idea of seeing it as in the context of the entire Bible and viewing it through the lens of what we know now from the New Testament, what we know from Jesus.

Sita Slavov: Thank you.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah. I think something that took me a while to understand in my faith as well is that in terms of the physical suffering aspect, that, you know, we're still waiting for Christ to come again. We are still post-fall. We are no longer in Eden. And so, there's a degree of, even though we have the Holy Spirit indwelling in us, there's still a degree of physical separation from God where there is natural evil. And that's something that, you know, God's not bridging right now. He's not healing everybody's disease. And so that's something that's promised to us in eternity, but that's just not where we're at in this point in history right now.

Sita Slavov: yeah

Kathleen Noller: So, I would love to hear in terms of we've talked about some of the objections to Christianity that I've heard. But what were some of the biggest misconceptions about Christianity or objections to the Christian faith that you heard from a Hindu or a Buddhist perspective? Or did they did they not even think about Christianity, which is fair too?

Sita Slavov: That's a good question. I’ll have to think about that. So, one objection I've heard is that that and I've heard this from both Hindus and Buddhists, that that Christians claim to have exclusive truth.

Kathleen Noller: once you dive into theologies of different religions, like I mentioned before, like the non-intersecting parts of the Venn diagram, they will conflict with each other at times.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And once you see those, you can't really go back and unsee that.

Sita Slavov: Yeah. What are you going to do with that? Right. Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah, But I think it that sort of desire to say that everybody is really worshiping the same God and religions or fundamentally at that at their core the same I think sometimes can come from a place of just like a desire for good of all humanity salvation of all humanity and sort of like an empathy and love for others so yeah.

Sita Slavov: Yeah, no, the intent behind that is wonderful and yeah.

Kathleen Noller: Absolutely. Yeah. So, my last question for you before we conclude is you've mentioned the C.S. Lewis Institute Fellows Program quite a bit.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And so, I was wondering what role discipleship has played in your spiritual maturation.

Sita Slavov: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And aside from discipleship, what has helped you most to grow in your faith over the years?

Sita Slavov: Yeah. So, I would say that that has been huge. So, there was a time earlier in my life. This was maybe years ago before I got into Zen that I did start going to church. And, you know, it's kind of like the seeds that fell on the rocky ground like they didn't.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Sita Slavov: I drifted away. And I think in retrospect, the reason was I sort of thought that I didn't really have to do much. I wasn't really engaged in discipleship at the, at the time.

Kathleen Noller: yeah

Sita Slavov: And, you know, more recently in, when I went back to church, I have taken discipleship very seriously. And then, the C.S. Lewis program has been a huge part of that you know, it has been, your life-changing for me. And that has really helped sort of deepen my faith and, you know, get me to the point where, like I, you know, drifting away this moment doesn't seem realistic to me.

Kathleen Noller: Yes

Sita Slavov: It's not, I think previously I felt like I had one foot out the door and I don't, I'm all in.

Kathleen Noller: yes

Sita Slavov: Yeah. So that has made a huge difference. And I think the other thing that's made a huge difference is community, just the support of a small group and a church community and, and you know, the groups that we do through the CS Lewis program, the mentor the mentor, the mentorship and the and the small groups and the triads.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, mentorship and discipleship continue to be so important to my faith and have been since I became a Christian so I'm very fortunate that you've been so deeply involved in that. And that mental state or that heart state or whatever you want to call it, of being all in as well is so important. So, I just, yeah, I just thank God for where he's brought you. And I'm so honored to have heard your story today and to have had you with us. For our conclusion, i typically read a quote from C.S. Lewis or somebody else today.

Sita Slavov: Yep.

Kathleen Noller: It'll be mere Christianity, which is timely because of our discussion.

Sita Slavov: Yeah

Kathleen Noller: But let me read this quote from mere Christianity and then wrap us up. I'm trying here to prevent any anyone saying the foolish thing that people often say about him, meaning Jesus. I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. a man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher would either be a lunatic on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg, or else he would be the devil of hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was and is the son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon, or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. Thank you so much for being here, Dr. Slavov, and thank you for listening to Kathleen Noller.

Sita Slavov: Thank you for having me.