Resources for Further Study:

• How to Talk About Jesus Without Looking Like an Idiot: A Panic-Free Guide to Having Natural Conversations About Your Faith by Andy Bannister
• Do Muslims and Christians Worship the Same God? by Andy Bannister
• The Atheist Who Didn't Exist (10th anniversary revised edition) by Andy Bannister
• Solas

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The Questioning Belief podcast explores objections to Christianity through in-depth discussions with experts. Drawing from her background as a former atheist and her experience in apologetics, Dr. Kathleen Noller invites you to explore thoughtful responses to serious questions about faith. Learn more.

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Explore written reflections from Dr. Kathleen Noller and get in touch with her through her Substack, The Reformed Gadfly.

Transcript

Kathleen Noller: Welcome to the Kathleen Noller podcast hosted by the C.S. Lewis Institute. I'm your host, Dr. Noller, former atheist turned Christian and biomedical scientist. Let's dive past the surface of Christianity together and see if it withstands your toughest objections. On today's episode, we tackle the following objection. Religion, like political belief, is a personal and private matter, aside from professional theologians or clergy whose job it is to handle religious matters. The lay Christian is neither equipped nor should feel emboldened to discuss their personal beliefs with others who do not share them. The attempt coming across is inappropriate and judgmental, and it is ultimately God who predestines people for salvation or otherwise, not the evangelistic actions of human beings. So, to discuss this objection and more objections, such as declarations like all religions are the same, and Christians are hypocrites, we have with us Dr. Andy Bannister. He is the director of SOLAS, an evangelism and training organization based in Scotland. He's a sought-after speaker and teacher and regularly addresses audiences of both Christians and those of all faiths or no faith on issues of faith, culture, politics, and society. Two of his highly acclaimed books that we'll be touching on today are How to Talk About Jesus Without Looking Like an Idiot: A Panic-Free Guide to Having Natural Conversations About Your Faith, and Do Muslims and Christians Worship the Same God?

He has a PhD in Islamic studies. He's taught extensively at universities across the world. He's an adjunct research fellow at Melbourne School of Theology, and he's also adjunct faculty at Wycliffe College in Toronto. So welcome, Dr. Bannister. Thank you for being here.

Andy Bannister: It's a real pleasure, Kathleen. Thank you so much for inviting me to be a guest on the podcast. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, me too. So, before we get started with the questions and the objections that I mentioned, I'd love for our listeners to hear a little bit about your background, how you first became involved in Christian apologetics, and why you chose to focus on Islamic studies for your PhD.

Andy Bannister: Yeah, so that's a great question, Kathleen. Well, two great questions, and they intersect, because what happened for me was, you know, until the late 1990s I hadn't really thought much about, certainly not much about Islam, certainly not much about, you know, the intellectual aspect of defending the Christian faith, what we might call apologetics. I was very active in my faith, been a Christian since my teens. I was involved in youth ministry. And then one day, a guy came to our church and did a presentation on Islam and reaching Muslim neighbors. And he described how every Sunday afternoon he went up to a place in London, England, called Speaker's Corner, which is part of one of our big parks in London. And it’s sort of become known as the World Centre of Free Speech. And at Speaker's Corner, you can stand on a ladder or a box, or if you're my height, a ladder and a box. And you can get a crowd and people talk about religion, politics, sport, you name it. And he was going there to Speaker's Corner because he'd figured out there were loads of Muslims who'd gone to preach Islam. So, he'd gone to preach to them. And it was amazing. Some of the stories he shared, we got talking after the seminar, Kathleen, and he said, "Andy, why don't you come to Speaker's Corner next week and see what we do?" So, I went up to London the following week. He met me at the train station, and he had two ladders with him, one on each shoulder. And I said, "Jay, why have you got two ladders?" He said, "Well, I'm going to stand on one and preach and you're going to stand on the other and preach." And I went, "I've never preached on the street before." He said, "Oh, it's easy. Any fool could do it." And then I tried to follow up with, "I've never talked to a Muslim before." He went, "Oh, they're easy. Anyone could talk to a Muslim." Kathleen, he was wrong on both counts.

Kathleen Noller: Oh, wow. Oh, I'm sure.

Andy Bannister: Spectacularly wrong.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: Because I got on the ladder and they ate me alive. The Muslims there were used to talking to Christians. I had no idea what I was doing. I looked very stupid in public. Got down from the ladder, my head spinning, thinking, well, maybe I ought to become a Muslim, because they seem to have all the answers and I have nothing. Went home, but I thought, before I do anything stupid, I should maybe, you know, ask around. So, I went to the local Christian bookstore the next day, told them my story, and the guy behind the counter said, "Andy, what you need is apologetics." And it was the first time I'd heard that word. It sounded like breakfast cereal. But, you know, as you know, it's not. It's the branch of theology concerning giving reasons. He sold me some books, including C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity. That was one of the first books I bought.

Kathleen Noller: Very nice.

Andy Bannister: And I read and read and read, went back to Speaker's Corner two weeks later, and they had new questions. And I looked stupid again. And for that reason, I'd read at Speaker's Corner on the weekend, and then I'd read during the week to kind of try and catch up. And over the next three months or so, Kathleen, God just did a work through me, really. He caused me to fall in love with just engaging Muslims. And to this day, I just find them wonderful, fascinating people to engage. Love their passion. I love energy. I love them, you know, you don't have to beat around the bush like you do with atheist friends. You can get straight in there. And I also fell in love with just talking about the reasons why, you know, I think we can have confidence that Christianity is true. And that eventually led to getting a PhD in Islamic studies. So be careful where you go on a Sunday afternoon is the moral of that story.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, oh my goodness, it's such a lesson in God leading your life and sort of being open to how the Spirit leads you. I listened to your book. I didn't read it in print. I listened to it as an audiobook, How to Talk About Jesus Without Looking Like an Idiot. I just must mention to all our listeners there, I really recommend the audiobook. It was just delightful to listen to. I laughed a lot.

Andy Bannister: Thank you.

Kathleen Noller: I had a great time. So, there's just that plug before we get into this, but, um...

Andy Bannister: That's very, very kind. The check's in the mail. So, thank you.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, Thank you. So, who is this book intended for? And you mentioned panic in the title.

Andy Bannister: Yes.

Kathleen Noller: And I think a lot of us, you know, even folks who are a little bit more experienced in talking to non-Christians still have panic when some of those conversations come up or fear, whatever the word is.

Andy Bannister: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: So, who's the book for and where does the panic come from on our end?

Andy Bannister: Yeah. Again, there are many brilliant questions there. So, in one sense, I suppose the way to begin is by saying that book was aimed at the 25-year-old me, because the Speaker's Corner story was in the late '90s.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: Before that, in the mid to early '90s, my first job was working for the health service in the UK. I worked for a local hospital, helping organize medical conferences. And I love my job. But I came to realize, looking back on that time, that I was very much an undercover Christian, that in the workplace, I just kept my faith quiet. I was very active in my church, as I described earlier, but stayed outside of work.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: Inside work, I just didn't know how to talk about my faith. I was afraid. I mean, panic is probably a good word. That's why we used it in the book you mentioned. I sort of thought, gosh, if I try and talk about my faith, I'm going to look like an idiot. I'm going to let God down. It's going to go wrong in so many ways. And all those fears just meant I said nothing. And it was some years later talking to other Christians that I realized, gosh, I'm not alone. A lot of Christians, I think, are afraid, as you hinted at there, you know, panic, fear, nervousness. You know, what if I make a mess of it? What if I get fired if it all goes badly wrong? And so, we say nothing. And survey after survey has picked up that many Christians are, as one comedian put it, we're like Arctic rivers in that we have frozen mouths, and we just don't say anything. So that book, really, I began to think, what's the kind of book...

Kathleen Noller: Yeah

Andy Bannister: ...that I wish I'd picked up when I was 20, 25, when I was younger. And then I looked around and I realized a lot of books, I think, on evangelism, there are some brilliant books out there. There really are. But I think a lot of them are a bit more advanced. They sort of assume that you're already sort of doing it and engaged. And some of them, you know, the people writing them, you look at it and think, gosh, I wish I was as clever as you.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: And so, I wanted to write not quite evangelism for dummies, but a book that's like, OK, if I'm terrified, I don't know what to do. I don't know where to start, a book that will help you. So, begin to work through those fears and then help put some practical tools in your hands so that any of us can begin thinking, you know what? I could talk about my faith at work and at school with my friends. And do you know what? Maybe God could use even me.

Kathleen Noller: And I like in your book that you mentioned that sometimes even looking at these prolific writers or famous apologists, Tim Keller, C.S. Lewis, or other folks like that can be inspiring, but sometimes intimidating in a way that ends up inhibiting our courage and our pursuit of apologetics as well.

Andy Bannister: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And so that seems like very much at play with your objective there.

Andy Bannister: Very much true. I think I told the story in the book, right, that was a major moment for me, I think, on that journey to fear, ironically, was when I was 20. Billy Graham, the amazing Billy Graham, came to the UK on one of his tours, and he preached at a place in London called Crystal Palace Stadium up down the road from where I used to live. So, you know, me and a load of mates from church went off to hear him. And I remember watching Billy preach and I remember sitting at the back of the stadium, listening to him preach, thinking, well, that wasn't the most dynamic sermon, actually, because he was a straightforward old-school preacher. And I confess I wasn't that impressed. And then the altar call was made and people went forward.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: And the 20-year-old me didn't go, oh wow, you know, look at how God's used him. I responded the other way.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: And went, surely, therefore, this proves that to be an evangelist, you need to be miraculously anointed. You know, you need to have some incredible spiritual gifts such that Billy has. And, you know, praise the Lord for Billy Graham because the rest of us haven't got it. And I think I walked out not encouraged, but well, encouraged there was Billy Graham, but discouraged that that wasn't for the likes of you and me. And again, talking to other people since, I've realized I'm not alone in this. You mentioned Tim Keller, C.S. Lewis, Rebecca McLaughlin.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: There are all these brilliant men and women out there who absolute geniuses are. And they're amazing. And I'm grateful to God for every single one of them. But sometimes I think for us less than mortals in the church, we can look at those people and go, well I just can't, I can't do that. I'm just not that eloquent. I'm not that gifted. But the good news is God can use any of us, and you know, in the book, the biblical example I use to start us off on that, think of Jonah in the Bible, probably the world's worst evangelist. He tries to run away from God. God has to use the whole whale business to get him to Nineveh. He goes to Nineveh. He preaches the world's most pathetic, useless sermon, five words in the Hebrew. The whole city repents. And even then, he doesn't go, amazing, God's used me. He goes and sits under a tree and has a screaming, grumpy fit because he wanted to see Nineveh buried under fire and brimstone. If God can use a man like Jonah, he can use any one of us listening to this podcast.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, absolutely. It's such a good point. And I think oftentimes the personality of the speaker is so important too for those stadium speakers like Billy Graham or Tim Keller, somebody who's just so magnetic or winsome. And, you know, that may not be something that everybody possesses. It may not be a gift everyone has to be able to speak in a stadium, but that certainly doesn't mean you are not able to speak in those smaller groups or one-on-one interactions.

Andy Bannister: Yeah. And the other thing I think that's helpful to realize, a lot of folks listening to this, Kathleen, is a couple of other things very briefly on that. One is that not everyone's going to go to a stadium.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: So, if the only way we could reach people for the gospel is stadiums, how do we reach people who are never going to set foot in one? However, everyone listening to this podcast who's a Christian will have friends, maybe family, neighbors who you may be the only real Christian they know.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: But you've got that connection with them and you may be the person that God would have reach them in your own way. And then secondly, “in your own way" is important. I think every one of us has a different evangelistic style. You know, my style is not your style. You know, your style is not Rebecca McLaughlin's style. The list goes on and on and on. We're all different. And I think God's done that deliberately in his economy. And we need the stadium speakers. We absolutely do. But we also need the people who are good at hospitality, who can invite a friend out for a coffee and just build that rapport and then quietly one-to-one just talk about what Jesus and the gospel means to them. We need that whole range of things. And so, I think another lesson I've learned over the years: don't be ashamed of the way God has made you. Rather be asking the Lord, okay, this is how you've made me. How can I reach the people you put in front of me using the style and the personality you've given me and ask the Holy Spirit to work through you rather than feeling you should be like somebody you're not?

Kathleen Noller: Yes, very well said. I want to touch back on the fear earlier that we mentioned, fear of apologetics, fear of becoming an evangelist, fear of talking about Christianity, whatever it might be. And I would say some people have different reactions to this fear. One reaction is, well, we're not persecuted the same way that people in Iran are, the same way that, you know, folks are in other parts of the world.

Andy Bannister: So, we shouldn't be afraid at all, and it's wrong to have it. Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: But then on the other hand, you hear a lot about cancel culture. I work in the scientific community. I'm a researcher, and so there's a lot of concern there about, you know, even reading some of John Lennox's early encounters with his professors, Stephen Meyer's encounters with folks.

Andy Bannister: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: There are concerns, they're not concerns at the level of death and martyrdom necessarily, but there are smaller practical concerns. And so, what's your advice to people regarding those in maybe the Western world? And how does that differ for maybe different levels of threat that they might encounter?

Andy Bannister: Yeah, oh again, what an excellent question. I think I'd say a couple of things there. And the challenge is balancing it because there are two sides to that question. The one is that, as you say, we're not suffering the persecution that, say, somebody may be if they come to faith from a Muslim background. I have many friends who are former Muslims, and for many of them, life transformed when they became a Christian, by which I mean they had to move country, they lost their family, there were real costs.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: I've had friends who've been beaten up for their faith, who've had death threats. You know, when you meet people like that, or you read some of the history of the persecuted church. And doing that is a good way to put a little bit of iron in your backbone of going, okay, gosh, there are men and women who have really risked all for the gospel. And if I haven't risked something for the gospel, it hasn't cost me something...how much do I really believe it? So, there is that side. And I think it's important we don't entirely run away from that. I think, you know, God does surround us by that great cloud of witnesses, as Hebrews puts it, to sort of put a bit of iron into our bellies and go, come on, look at all the people cheering us on. That's not unimportant. And I think some of us need to be reminded of that. The other side of it, too, is exactly as you described, it can be difficult. And look, just because, you know, if you've got a fear of being cancelled at work, having somebody go, oh, come on, pull yourself together.... That may be true.

Kathleen Noller: Thank you.

Andy Bannister: I'm not sure it's necessarily helpful. What I have found helpful over the years is, I think it's helpful to name those fears. So, sit down with other Christians. God puts us into community. So, you know, particularly if you can find other people in your discipline, if you're a scientist, try and find, you know, there are often networks of Christians across the disciplines. There are networks of Christians in science, Christians in education. Maybe they're in your church, people who are in similar disciplines with other Christians who can support and encourage you can be helpful. Because if you try and engage in Lone Ranger evangelism, if you feel you're the only person in your workplace and you've got to stand up on your own, it's all down to you, it's going to be very tough.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Andy Bannister: But if you've got other brothers and sisters who come alongside you and go, let me chat about how I did that...

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: ...let me encourage you. Let me help you. You mentioned John Lennox, right? You know, he's blazed a trail, James Tour, another one, Christian scientist. You know, those people who can show us the way. So, look for people in your discipline who've demonstrated what it means. Try and find people around you who can stand with you. And then I think I will also be looking for opportunities to begin putting your head above the parapet in gentle ways. Sometimes in the workplace, I think we sort of think I've got to go from zero to literally, you know, standing up on a table in the cafeteria at lunchtime, preaching the gospel with a placard.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: And it's terrifying. But what if you started gently? What about if on a Monday morning you decided when someone asks the "how was your weekend" question, you don't duck the church piece and you go, you talk about your Saturday, you talk about your Sunday morning. What about if you allow yourself to get caught at lunchtime reading, maybe not John Lennox, but maybe there are other books that might spark a question. What about taking little gentle steps, you know, towards outing yourself at work? And then finally on this, I think the other thing that really matters here: make sure as a Christian, if you're in the workplace or if you're a student in university, make sure what you are doing, you're doing with excellence. Because if your colleagues love and value you, if you are someone who puts the team first, who goes the extra mile, who is a great person to have around...yes, there are still some risks, I get that, but the risks are lower because people are going to: I love the fact that Kathleen's on my team because she works hard. And yes, she's one of those weird religious types, but you know what? Her work's good and she puts in the hours, and she doesn't cut corners. And yeah, it's hard for people to dislike you...

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: ...if you're serving people well. And so, make sure we're doing that. And, you know, as Peter says in 1 Peter 3:15-16, you know, act with gentleness and respect and kindness in the way that we treat others. And then people are going to go, okay, what's different about you?

Kathleen Noller: I've had some friends that I know who have received that very question. They haven't said anything outright, but people have noticed that there's something different. I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with that sort of approach. But there's... Yeah.

Andy Bannister: Yeah, likewise. To go, you can hide behind it, I would say. The way of hiding behind it is when I was at the workplace, I used to think if I'm a nice person and just really kind to people, people will figure out the gospel bit.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Andy Bannister: And they don't.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: They just think you're a nice person.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: So, you do have to follow through with talking about your faith a little bit so that people connect the two. And then the other easy win I learned from a friend years ago is to look for ways to do things that do make you stand out at work beyond perhaps just making coffee occasionally. One interesting one is in workplaces where people can be a bit gossipy. Not every workplace is like this, but some places are. an interesting way to stand out as a Christian is the moment you hear anyone badmouth anybody else, say something positive about that person. Firstly, it shuts down criticism.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: It's very hard to be backbiting someone who's out of the room if there's an annoying person in the room going, I really appreciate that person. And then people will notice and people begin to go, what?

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: You're always positive. I've never heard you say... Yeah. And then to go, you take the opportunity to go, well, the reason I do that is just because I'm a Christian and I think everyone is made in God's image. And so, I try my very best to reflect that in my work relationships. I don't always get it right, but I try. So that's why I do that. Again, it's hard for someone to go, oh you're a religious nutter if you've literally just demonstrated in the way that you speak about fellow colleagues. And people also learn to trust you because if you're nice about people who are being backbitten about when they're out of the room, they're going to assume when they're out of the room, you're being nice about them too. So, it's a very practical, low-key win, but you have to follow it through by telling people why you're doing it. And I know that's scary and the heart will be racing a bit and the palms a bit sweaty, but again, if you've acted first and people have seen something different in you and then you've connected it to your faith, people are going to take it that little bit more seriously, I think.

Kathleen Noller: I very much like that approach. I hear a common tactic from folks in the academic community, which is where I am, and I'm sure it's similar in other communities and industry and elsewhere. Essentially, the form of it in the university is: I'm going to wait to get tenure and then I'm going to out myself as a Christian because I know I'm going to have to die on some hill related to my faith. So, I'd rather die on a higher, more visible hill than a lower hill.

Andy Bannister: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: But it takes till you're 40 years old, 50 years old to get tenure.

Andy Bannister: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: It's not an easy feat. You end up maybe acting in a Christian manner the whole time to get there, maybe being more silent than you wanted, maybe not acting in a Christian manner. I don't know. What do you think of an approach like that?

Andy Bannister: I can understand why somebody might take that approach, Kathleen. But I'm nervous about it for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I think, and I lived this out in my case, I wasn't in the academic world at that point, that came later. But when I was working for the health service in medical education, you know, every day that I chose not to say something, it got harder. And the moment never came. And for me, it might have been a going, well, maybe when I'm on the senior leadership team and I work my way up to be number two in the department, in the education department...over my time there, but again, I never changed because it was every day. It just got easier to say nothing.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: And the danger is thinking, well, okay, when I achieve tenure, and if you're not careful, the next step is okay, but maybe when I get my magnum opus published or when I become a professor or when... there's always another.

Kathleen Noller: Exactly. Yes. Yeah.

Andy Bannister: And I think the reverse is true. I remember I've got a friend of mine who is an academic in the UK. And he said to me, he said, "I'm very glad that the advice I got on day one from a colleague who's a Christian was from day one, identify yourself as a Christian. You don't need to do more than that." "But when you win a new team, for example, and people are introducing themselves, just say, you know, I'm Andy Bannister. I'm a professor of psychiatry. I'm not I’m just giving an example. You know, I'm a Christian. And you know, I play hockey. I do whatever. And make it part of your little biography." Just throw it in there. That solves the "die on a hill" thing.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: Because if somebody throws some curveball at you, you can always smile and go, look, I'm a big believer in not trying to bring faith in complicated ways into the workplace. So, look, I'll happily talk about that after work, but let's just talk about the work. You know, don't get drawn into, you know, Trump versus Biden or, you know, sexuality, whatever. I think you can just go, I'm not going to talk about that today because we're here to do work.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: But, you know, I'm also not afraid of saying this is who I am. And particularly in a culture that encourages people to bring their whole self to work, I think it's important that Christians can bring their faith to work. My friends with political passions can bring those to work, but also, we need to get on as a team. So, I think it's easier to name it on day one, not when you go down the line.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Andy Bannister: And then the other danger is going with waiting until you achieve tenure or whatever it is, you know, I can't remember if it was Calvin or Luther. I think it was Calvin who said that the human heart is an idol-making factory. And we have a terrible tendency as humans to turn good things into ultimate things, and they become terrible things. And pursuing tenure, that's a great thing...

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: ...to pursue. Of course it is. God has wired some of us that way. But if that becomes the main thing, such that you know the gospel and my love of Christ get played into second place, I just wonder it's how great a cost is that you're paying at that price. Now, I know that's easy for me to say if someone's listening to this thinking, okay, well, basically, are you telling me I should commit academic suicide? I'm not saying that, but I am saying... maybe just be careful that you haven't made a good thing into an ultimate thing. And it's going to let you down because, you know, you know, you're in the world of academia. When you achieve tenure, it's probably not going to be all it's cracked up to be. It's not going to be everything you've dreamt of.

It's going to continue to be hard work and blood, sweat and tears. So yeah, I would say much easier to out yourself as a Christian early on and be subtle with it at first by all means as you're on that road to career advancement but actually I think people are going to respect you far more if you're someone who's clear about your beliefs, willing to knuckle down and do the hard work. And what an opportunity on the way to tenure. That's going to involve a lot of hard work, working hard, you know, doing long hours. As people look at you and go, do you know what? They are one of those Christians, but I can't fault them academically because they're really willing to do the hard graft.

Kathleen Noller: And I think too, you know, tenure is not as safe as it used to be. It's not any, any promotion, any position in the world is not unbreakable. And so, you know, if that's going to be the thing that we're going to sort of use as our anchor and then move forward from there, it might not be as firm an anchor as we think anyway. But that segues me nicely into my next question for you, which was about the content of what we should be sharing.

Andy Bannister: Yes.

Kathleen Noller: So, it's often, you know, phrased as, we should share the gospel. Should Christians be diving into Christianity-associated perceived issues, like you mentioned, some political issues or some niche topics? Or should we just start by focusing on whatever we think is a salvation matter or an essential of the gospel?

Andy Bannister: Oh, what a great question. On the one hand, I want to say that we should stay away from those, you know, sort of adjacent issues as far as we possibly can. Because obviously, if you stray into politics...and or if you stray into some of the big culture war issues, the danger is that firstly or ironically, more well, you're more likely to get yourself cancelled going there than anywhere else. And you're going to alienate people to go, you know, if you are a Christian who, you know, is passionate about just to pick an example, you know, right-wing Republican politics. I'm not making any disparaging remarks about that or the other side. But if you are, let's say, as Christians are often assumed to be, then if you're trying to talk to your, you know, your left-wing Democrat-leaning friend about faith issues, they're going to write you off before you go any further. It's not fair. Totally not fair they've written you off. I get that. But they have written you off, and they haven't written you off for a gospel issue. They've written to you about a political issue. So, one thing I've learned over the years is if you're passionate about an area, can you talk about it in a neutral kind of way? Like if politics does come up, you know, in the workplace sometimes it does, you know, much better I think to say things like, gosh, you know, isn't it tough living in a time where, you know, everything seems so divided? How do we bring, you know, people together? Or as a Christian I'm concerned that what we see is, you know, people kind of throwing, you know, sort of hand grenades at each other rather than finding ways to disagree kindly. So, you can talk about the issue but try and do it in a way that's not divisive. The other thing you can sometimes do is start with the issue that you're given and find a way to bridge gently to the gospel.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: So, for example, you know, another hot button issue of, say, sexuality comes up rather than wading straight into, well, let me tell you what I think about Christian morality and that issue, which, again, is probably not the good starting point.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: What might be interesting is to say, hey, I'm fascinated by the fact that we all think sexuality really matters. Christians think it does, you know, our more progressive friends think that it does. I'm intrigued, why do you think that issue matters? After all, if there is no God, we're just mammals whose only purpose is survival and reproduction and mating and reproductive fitness. But you know, the fact that you've raised this issue tells me you don't think that at all. I as a Christian don't either, but why do you think what you think? and what you've done there, you've done an Acts 17. You've taken what Paul does in Athens, where he comes across the altar to the unknown God. You know, Paul has no time for idolatry, but he doesn't go in and, you know, launch both barrels at the Athenians. He goes in and goes; I was impressed by how religious you were. And I was really surprised and walked around your city in amazement. And then I saw this altar and that got me thinking. And as you'll know, one of the things we talk about in the How to Talk About Jesus book is there's a whole chapter on wandering questions. How do you start from where somebody is and sort of wander your way across the gospel? And I think I've seen in workplace settings and university settings, that's an interesting way of doing it because it means you can stay away from it, you don't run away from the hot button issues, but you come sideways from them and get people thinking about the bigger questions behind them. Does that help a little bit?

Kathleen Noller: Yes, it does. I really enjoyed that chapter and I was wondering if you could give our listeners, for those who haven't read it yet, some example questions which offer ways to open up a conversation without making someone defensive, especially questions that could be used a little bit more organically when you haven't been perhaps directly confronted, but you want to start a conversation.

Andy Bannister: Yeah. So, the whole wandering approach starts from the basis that there's been numerous studies showing that across the Western world, you know, society is becoming less atheistic. I think the UK is leading the charge here. There's a survey showing now that Generation Z as Gen Z are the least atheist generation for a long time.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: 30% of young men aged 18 and under are now going to church once a month, which is, I think, an incredible leap from the last time the stats were done five years ago.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: Same trends beginning in the USA and in Canada. So, I think people are open to spiritual conversations. They just don't have the language to engage in them anymore. And so, if we're not careful as Christians, we come in, you know, sort of using our old-school questions about the Bible and Christian faith and they don't connect. And that's where things go wrong. But if you start where people are at, you can do all kinds of things. So, one of the examples I use in the book is, you know, we live in a culture that's so obsessed—obsessed is pejorative word. I can't think of a better word than being obsessed, but that really, really cares about justice. You know, that is probably one of the defining issues in our culture, whether it's racial justice or environmental justice, whatever it is.

Most of our friends, neighbors, colleagues, classmates, justice matters to them. And that, I think, is a wonderful gospel opportunity. And if you're sitting down, you know, in the staff canteen at work or wherever at lunchtime and, you know, that your friend is surfing through the news on their phone, they see, you know, some story out of the Middle East and they make some comment about, isn't it terrible what's going on in Gaza? Sometimes as Christians, we're very quick to leap in and go, well, let me give you my opinion on the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: Maybe don't do that. What about saying, that's interesting. What was the story you've read? And get them to tell you and to go, gosh, that's really, yeah, what a story. Tell me, why does that get you passionate? And they'll go, you know, it's a terrible abuse of human rights. Yeah, I agree with you. Hey, just out of interest, why do you think human rights matter? What do you think it is about humans that mean that, you know, when the things that you've just described are done to them, that that's wrong? And what you're doing is you haven't mentioned God, mentioned Christianity, but you're nudging them gently. Where you want to go with that ultimately is to go, I agree with you, it's terrible. I agree. The reason I think it's terrible is I'm a Christian. And I believe that human beings are not just atoms and particles but are made in the very image of God and are of infinite value, which is why justice really, really matters and human rights really matter. But don't start there. You want to start with where your friend is at. And very quickly, you'll find if you start asking those kinds of questions to your friend, they'll run out of steam quite quickly. And they'll sort of run into, well, kind of... I suppose everybody knows. And you go, clearly everybody doesn't because that's why human rights abuse happens.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: And then you can start with the justice and human rights thing. And before you know it, you are able to then, you know, introduce the Christian understanding here and go, look, I don't know what you believe or don't believe. But what I do know is we desperately need a foundation for things like human rights and justice. I don't think we can get there from "we're just stuff." I do think Christianity gives an interesting framework...

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: ...that allows us to find a basis for things that we care about. What do you think? And I find using that approach, you'll open the conversation up. And you don't, it's not always easy. There'll be pushbacks. It will go in strange directions. You've still got to bring Jesus and the gospel in there. But because you started from where someone is at, you're going to see, I think, far more fruit in that conversation. And again, back to Paul in Athens. That's what he does with the altar to the unknown God. He starts from there and he basically says to the Athenians, hey, have you guys ever wondered what this unknown God is that you've bothered to build an altar to? have you ever thought about it? Well, why don't I tell you?

Kathleen Noller: I like that approach very much because it lets the other person guide you to where their issues are and where there, you know, individual struggles are concerning Christianity rather than you just pushing your own narrative and forcing it and asking your own leading questions. It's a very timely story too, because I recently had somebody who doesn't know me very well ask me very pointedly and sort of out of the blue, "Oh, I know you're Christian. And I know that Christians are passionate about pro-life and they care about the life of the fetus. Why do they not care about children being killed in Gaza?"

Andy Bannister: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And that was a big, whoa, okay, let's step back. They absolutely care about children being killed.

Andy Bannister: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And let's talk about, you know, the value of human life and protecting the weak.

Andy Bannister: Although I agree, it's, you know, it can be hard now, but to just pause briefly, count to 10 and pray and go, wow, what a question and what a good question.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: But, you know, before I answer it, can I just gently turn it around to you?

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: You obviously think that children dying in Gaza are wrong. Tell me, why do you think it's wrong? What is it that leads you to conclude that's a bad thing? And what will happen is most people, I think, are ended up sort of parked on the bits and pieces of the Christian worldview they've cobbled together. They want to hang on to the idea that human beings have value. They want to hang on to the idea that we're not just, you know, a random collection of atoms.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: But they haven't got the story that informs that. So, without engaging in gotcha moments, I think I would start by, and Jesus does this all the time, right? You turn the tables; ask them the question first and just probe a little bit. And then you could come over and say, well, that's interesting. Look, as a Christian, this is what I think. And talk about the fact that I think everybody is, you know, every life is inestimably precious, demonstrated by Jesus dying for us. That's how valuable we are. And then I think even be humble and go, I completely recognize that Christians are not always as good at being consistent. You know, we do sometimes perhaps give the impression, you know, we care more about the life in the womb than the life of the child in Gaza, whereas actually, if we bear the image of God, both lives are equally important.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah. Absolutely.

Andy Bannister: If we are just atoms in motion, neither life matters, quite frankly, and all we have is the will to power, to quote the famous atheist, Friedrich Nietzsche.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Andy Bannister: But you're right to challenge Christians on not being as consistent as we should be. And taking that approach, you do a couple of things. You've turned the tables on them a little bit and got them to think about their foundations. You've started from there, if you've not got defensive and just come across to, you know, the starting point for the gospel, right? That we're not just atoms and particles. And I think if you do that little bit of humility and don't get defensive and be willing to go to your skeptical friends, you know, you do partly have a fair point. The thing you shouldn't do, I think, is get all political and go, right, going to score some points here because that's never, nobody wins at that point.

Kathleen Noller: So, we've talked about a lot of these conversations in a sort of one-on-one context. How do we handle talking in a small group or in a larger context? Is that something that, let's say, a lay apologist should even attempt to do? Or somebody, perhaps a Christian listening, who's new to apologetics or seeking to get better, should they stick to those one-on-one conversations before branching out?

Andy Bannister: Oh, wow. What a great question. I think the answer I would give there, Kathleen, is really see what God brings across your path. I mean, that's always been my own kind of journey. I mean, obviously, we started this conversation with Speaker's Corner for me, which you know was up a ladder with a crowd. But in one sense, I didn't go looking for that. It came looking for me. When I went up to London to see what my friend Jay, what my now friend Jay was doing, I had no intention of going anywhere near a ladder. I got kind of forced into one.

So, I'm a great believer, you know, in saying, you'd be praying, you know, if you want to share your faith more, start with prayer and pray, Lord, I want to share more. I want to present, I want to, you know, talk to more people about Christ. Would you create some opportunities for me? Whether that's a small group, whether it's just a random comment a friend makes at work or someone I bump into, you know, in the subway or the bus stop, whatever it is, you know, ask God to create those opportunities. And then look to be stepping into them. You'd be amazed how often when you start praying for opportunities, the Lord creates the opportunities. Yeah, for some people, it might be a group setting. For others, it might just be one-to-one. Don't rule either out or don't go searching for opportunities that he hasn't created.

Kathleen Noller: I think we often forget to pray for things like that. So that's a great reminder for us. And I think one of the things that I'm thinking about is in my church small group, I asked folks, what was their main fear about apologetics. And these are women who have been in the faith for many years. They have, you know, strong theological knowledge and spiritual maturity about them. They're what one would say is reasonably prepared, right, as much as someone could be. And the number one fear that I got was the fear of debate, that if someone switches into a debate mode against you...you're not going to have the facts to come back at them. You're not going to be able to say, well, the four Gospels were written this many years after Jesus' death. And at this archaeological site, there's evidence for the city of Jericho and just pull out all these facts like a professional.

Andy Bannister: Yeah, like a machine. Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: Yes. So, what would you say to folks like that? And how do we handle someone switching into debate mode with us?

Andy Bannister: Yeah. Well, it's a couple of things. Firstly, I think it's interesting that someone's impression of apologetics was what it looks like, which I find fascinating.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Andy Bannister: I think that does show the word apologetics has got a bit of a bad name. And actually, at SOLAS, the ministry I lead, we rarely use the word apologetics because I think it comes freighted with all kinds of misconceptions, either people who are afraid of it or the other thing I often meet, I meet the apologetics junkies who actually can recite every biblical manuscript in chronological order while standing on their head and they terrify me.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: Whereas the phrase we prefer to use is persuasive evangelism, which I think is a rough translation of apologetics. How do we engage in evangelism but that's persuasive? And persuasion can be different in different settings. You know, 1 Peter 3:15, which is the famous verse that says, be prepared to give a reason for the hope that you have, also goes on to say that our lives are part of that reason. Our lives should be persuasive. People should look at us and go; there is something different about you. Persuasion can look very different in different settings. That's the first thing I would say. So, I would want to be with that kind of group gently, but perhaps even beginning by saying, where did you get the idea that, that's what apologetics must be?

Kathleen Noller: Sure.

Andy Bannister: Second thing, I guess I'd reassure people by going, very rarely do I end up in debate settings in everyday conversation. Where I would normally end up in them is if I've stood up the front and given a talk at university, you know, which is, you know, a deliberate public space event and students brought friends and it's in a sense, you know, come along and hear a Christian give a compelling, you know, hopefully God willing, compelling presentation. Doesn't tend to happen in one-on-one settings. People have questions. And then I would say if there's a question that comes, you know, if you know the answer, share it in a non-confrontational way. Just go, that's a good question. I wonder if you've considered that this might be helpful.

If you partly know the answer, again, don't try and be, you know, do more than you can. Just be honest and go, hey, that's a great question. Just a couple of thoughts. I don't have everything here, but a couple of thoughts. I wonder if you've thought about X and Y. And then thirdly, if you don't know the answer, I found a helpful approach over the years, Kathleen, is to say to the person, that's a good question. Look, forgive me for asking, does that question really matter to you? If you got a really good answer to that question, would you take a serious look at Jesus?

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: If they go no, to go, well, okay, let's move on then, because there's no point playing games, right?

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: If they say, well I might, then say, look, I'll be honest, I don't know the answer, but I think I know some people who might, because I know people who are much smarter than I am. I'll tell you what, would you leave that with me? And I will see if I can go and find an answer, because it's a good question, and then I'll come back to you. And then be true to your word. Talk to an older, wiser Christian. Talk to a pastor. You know, go and visit the C.S. Lewis Institute website or the SOLAS website with the kind of resources there. Take the time because what a great opportunity then to go back to that person and go, hey, well, thank you for that question you raised last week.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Andy Bannister: And, you know, I did some thinking, did some reading. And, hey, I think I've come up with an answer. And doing that allows you to print out the answer if you need to. If it's like something from a website. You can go look; I found this essay...

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: ...written by a professor of historical manuscripts or something who addresses your question. I went digging for you. What do you think? Have a look. And that then turns out to be a kind of massively confrontational debate, you versus them kind of piece. You can't always avoid those things, but in my experience, they are rare, rare. And perhaps our fear of them is more, is bigger than reality.

Kathleen Noller: And I hope that's reassuring for folks listening in as well. I think apologetics, you're right, sometimes gets a reputation for being this academic discipline and that you must be a professional theologian to engage in it. And otherwise, you're just not doing it justice. And that's not true. I mean, look at C.S....Yeah.

Andy Bannister; Lewis. He was an academic, right? He was a bright guy, but he was not a trained theologian.

Kathleen Noller: Yep.

Andy Bannister: And he was sometimes criticized for that by trained theologians who got a bit sort of, as you know, their noses out of joint that he was a professor of literature engaging in the field, but he didn't stop him. And he wrote brilliant books of, you know, perhaps more traditional apologetics. Perhaps we might think of Mere Christianity as the one that many people have read. But then look, he also does narrative apologetics. We can forget that the Chronicles of Narnia are apologetic...in written form. They're apologetic for the beauty of the gospel. You know, many people have read those stories and that's been their way into the gospel. And woven into those stories, Lewis will often address apologetic arguments but in narrative form.

So, you know there's a lovely illustration, given this is the C.S. Lewis Institute podcast, that you know our eponymous friend demonstrated that you don't need to be a trained theologian. He took the gifts that he had. He was a writer...and a thinker and he used them to articulate the gospel so that tells me if you're academic listening to this you can do this but equally if you're an office worker or a housewife or house husband or a bus driver or a student whatever it is pray to the Lord and go Lord how can I use the gifts that you've given me to share the gospel in a way that engages my friends my colleagues in a way that's appropriate.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, absolutely. And like you said, too, you may be the only Christian that has access to your friends and your colleagues, and you may be the only one they're going to encounter. So that's very important to remember. And I'd love to discuss in the book; you talk about looking for gaps in others' worldviews.

Andy Bannister: Yes.

Kathleen Noller: So, I was wondering, what are some of the more common worldviews you encounter and how are those different in the different countries you've worked in? Maybe we could do UK versus USA. Because I think a lot of people have in their minds the new atheists, the sort of Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins. And is that really what's going on the ground? And is that what you see, or do you see something else?

Andy Bannister: See, any longer on the ground. And in fact, this is sort of interesting timing because my first popular book in 2015 was The Atheist Who Didn't Exist, which was an engagement with the new atheism. And we literally have coming out in the UK in two weeks' time and in the US later in the summer, the 10th anniversary edition of The Atheist Who Didn't Exist.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.Oh nice.

Andy Bannister: And what happened in those 10 years, of course, the new atheism has fizzled out. You know, Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennett, two of the famous new atheists from back then, are dead.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: So arguably, they're doing empirical research now into the God question. Who else? Sam Harris has become weird Buddhist-y, new age-y type who is doing podcasts on mindfulness and annoying a lot of his former fans who think that he's become religious. And then you've got Dawkins who is now, you know, come out and said, oh well I'm a cultural Christian and is saying nice things about Christianity.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Andy Bannister: He's very clear he doesn't believe it, but he thinks it might be good compared to the alternative. So, the whole thing has changed. And then... We have certainly what in the UK scene has come to be called the surprising rebirth of belief in God, to quote the title of a book by a friend of mine, showing that now you've got a whole number of public intellectual figures who years ago would have all been atheists, but I think are now talking positively about Christian faith, whether that's the historian Tom Holland, or you've got the kind of feminist academic Louise Perry and others...who are you know making really big names for themselves as public thinkers and intellectuals, but they either are Christians or are almost there. So that's all shifted. And then the other movement that's going on in the UK, and I alluded to this earlier, and I think the US is not far behind. We've also seen this amazing awakening among young people where I think a lot of young people now are reconsidering faith again. We're seeing amazing statistics in the UK in terms of young people attending churches. Christian campus groups are seeing all kinds of things kind of going on. And I would say we’d gone, if I went and do a university event now, you know, five, ten years ago, the questions would have been, you know, faith and science or, you know, those kinds of questions. Now the questions are more, you know, where can I find hope in the world, or you know how Christianity help with the question can of meaning or whatever. The questions have shifted from is Christianity true to what difference does it make? That's the starting point. And I would say the US, and I've just come off a sabbatical tour in the US, I was three months over there, did nine CS Lewis centers as part of that tour. It was interesting doing some campus events as part of that. I'm very struck by, I did an event at Jamestown University in West Virginia, and I was talking to one of the campus ministry leaders there who, she said, look, I'm responsible. I've got four-year groups here that I look after at this university. She said, you know, the fourth years, the older ones, you know, the group is kind of, you know, sort of so big...third year's a bit bigger. Second year was much bigger. The first year's, we've got so many of them, we can hardly find a room big enough to put them all in.

Kathleen Noller: Oh, wow.

Andy Bannister: So, I don't know what's happening. All I can say is the younger we go, the more the passion, the more the interest, the Christians are more fired up, and the non-Christians are much more willing to come to events and engage in spiritual questions. So, I think there's a real shift happening in culture. And as Christians, I think it's vital we're ready for that, that we're listening to the questions that are being asked and not assume we know what those questions are because they were being asked years ago. New atheism is over. The arguments that advanced are still kicking around. You'll still hear them online. People still come up with arguments that Dawkins was advancing years ago. We need to be able to engage people...with those, but we're also living in very, very, very interesting times. Because, and you raised the question of worldview, I don't think the other worldviews out there are sustainable. And the idea, the humanistic one, which is the one that the West has tried to live by, I think, for the last 100 years, and that we can throw God out the window, but we can still have meaning, we can still have hope, we can still have, you know, the common good, we can still have human rights, it's failed utterly.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: It's failed utterly. And again, this brings us back to C.S. Lewis, right? Because what led him to faith in his 30s? All the things he cared about, he finally worked out. They don't work if Christianity isn't true, you can't have meaning and beauty and music and literature and joy and all these things. And as he suddenly realized that and the light bulb came on, then, of course, he became a Christian as he realized that it made sense of everything that he was already passionate about. And I think we've got a lot of people who are in that similar kind of space, right now. So, I'm excited. And there's been some great stuff happening in the US too, of course. I mean, look at the Asbury revival as a so-called, you know, not that long ago. Just one data point on the graph, but I think an important one.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: So, I'm encouraged. There's a lot of work to be done. We live in challenging times. Yes. But also, Aslan is on the move, as C.S. Lewis would say.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, that's very encouraging to hear about the younger folks and very interesting that the nature of the questions is shifting from sort of maybe a more debate-minded, knowledge-focused, scientific stance to, you know, how is this applicable? How is this going to matter? How can I get hope? Things like that. That brings me into one of the questions that I had for you, and I was hoping we could talk about, or one of the main objections I hear to Christianity, which is all religions are the same.

Andy Bannister: Well, the first thing I would say, I always like to begin by saying, if someone asks that question, I like to gently sort of turn it around and say, look, if I was to say to you, look, I've got a really big, really significant money-saving tip for you. And my money-saving tip is this, you never need to buy another book. Because every book in the bookstore is identical. Every book is the same. They're literally the same. The only people who are telling you otherwise are publishers and authors who are trying to sell you stuff.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Andy Bannister: It's all a money-making racket. But trust me, every book is the same. And I have to say to somebody, would you conclude, if I said that to you, would you conclude that, number one, wow, thank you, Andy, that's the most amazing thing ever. I knew Brits were a special race and you've saved me a fortune. I never need to buy another book. Or would you conclude Andy Bannister has clearly never read more than one book in his life, because there's no way anyone could advance that claim if they'd looked for a moment. And of course it is the latter.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: And then I gently say, look, with the greatest respect, when someone says to me all the world's religions are essentially the same, what that tells me is they haven't really looked at any of them. Because when you do look at them, there are massive, massive differences.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: I mean, take just some obvious low-hanging fruit for a moment. Buddhism in its classic form is atheistic. It doesn't believe in a god. And, you know, really the idea is that if you master the truths and the teachings of Buddhism, then ultimately you can kind of be absorbed into the cosmic everything and achieve ultimate oneness with the universe and so be it. No god anywhere to be seen. Then we have Islam and Christianity. You know, Islam, the Quran, claims that Jesus was never crucified. The Quran rejects most of the core teachings of Christianity, but it rejects the crucifixion, which is a historical claim. Christianity, on the other hand, is centered on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. So, both of those claims can't be true. Jesus can't be both crucified and not crucified. And so, it goes on. When you start comparing religious traditions, they look very, very, very different. And in the book, I wrote a few years ago on this, I wrote a book called Do Muslims and Christians Worship the Same God? To help people navigate this, I suggest, you know, I love questions as we've seen in this podcast, Kathleen. So, I just suggest four questions you can ask. Is there a God and what is God like?

What is a human being? What's gone wrong with the world? And what's the solution? And if you put those four questions to any religious tradition you like including atheism, because every human being must answer those questions in some ways...the differences stack up and that shouldn't surprise us that it shouldn't that's not something to be afraid of. I think it's something to lean into and go this is interesting this means you know what I'm going to have to do some work I can't be lazy and go I can pick what I like or they're all the same there are differences and the differences make a difference.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, those four questions are very, very helpful. I'd love to quickly touch on the crucifixion of Jesus and sort of that counterpoint between Islam and Christianity that you mentioned. Should you go to the historical evidence, or should you go to something upstream?

Andy Bannister: Yeah.

Kathleen Noller: And how would you handle that?

Andy Bannister: Gosh, there's a great question. I mean, certainly with a Muslim friend, I would love to be talking about, hey, let's talk about Jesus. You know, there are about 93 verses in the Quran that mention Jesus. You might say to your Muslim friend, hey, you know, I don't really know much about the Quran. Tell me what the Quran says. And then where I often like to go is say, hey, I understand the Quran says that Jesus taught people, which he does. What are some of you know what are some of your favorite teachings of Jesus? And your Muslim friend is probably going to get stuck at that point because the Quran contains none of them. And then I would use that as opportunity to go, well, hey, would you like me to share with you one of Jesus's stories? He loved telling stories. And there are many in the Bible. Can I share one with you? And I tend to find Muslims love the stories of Jesus, actually, because Islam is a Middle Eastern story-based culture in many ways. And so, you're away.

You don't need to wade straight into the crucifixion when you come to it. I would say a couple of things there to my Muslim friends. I would say first thing is to go, you know, but before we look at the crucifixion on its own, we need to look at the teachings of Jesus. And, you know, are you aware, you might say to them, that Jesus predicted his own death? It wasn't a random thing. He knew it was coming. Your Muslim friend probably isn't aware of that and to go, let me show you and give him a couple of examples from the gospel. So, it's not like the crucifixion was a random thing. Jesus was heading that way and predicted that was what was going to happen. And then if you want to go a little bit more historically critical, you can say, hey, you know, just out of interest, when, you know, when was the Quran written? Do you know the dates? And of course, you know, Muhammad's public ministry was from 610. So, it's 600 years after Jesus.

And to go, now, here we have in the Gospels, we have documents that were written, you know, by the eyewitnesses within, before AD 70, I think we're safe because that's the date of the destruction of Jerusalem. And there's no sense of that being reflected...in the Gospels. I think that's a good date to go for. So, we're talking within a lifetime of the eyewitnesses. And the first Christians, you know, believed that Jesus was the Messiah, and the Messiah was supposed to defeat the Romans, not get crucified by them. It's an embarrassment. So, there's no reason for the first Christians to make that up. But then the next place I would go with Muslims is to go, but here's a bigger thing. Of course, the Gospels don't end with crucifixion. They end with the resurrection. Jesus predicted he would rise again, and he did kind of rise again. That's what started early in church. But now we have a mystery in the Quran. The Quran doesn't know about the resurrection of Jesus. Doesn't rebut it, doesn't deny it, doesn't know that's what Christians believe.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Andy Bannister: If you read the Quran, chapters of the Quran, you would not at the end of it go, oh, okay, I get it. Christians believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus and the Quran has rejected those things. I often say to Muslim friends, you know, if I wrote a 500-page textbook on Islam and I didn't mention Muhammad once, you'd probably conclude I'd missed something, that I didn't know what I was talking about. Well, I look at the Quran, which purports to talk about Jesus, it doesn't even know about the resurrection. So that's a difficulty. So, look, why don't we start with the original and go from there? Now, if you end up in that place, you're going to get into debate. We've talked about debate.

Kathleen Noller: Okay.

Andy Bannister: Your Muslim friend will raise questions, and that's okay. But I try and start, first, with getting them to look at Jesus rather than getting the arguments about Jesus, because so many of the Muslims I know who've come to faith in Christ, it was attraction to Jesus that drove them there.

Andy Bannister: Yes, there were questions along the way. But primarily there was an attraction to the person of Jesus. And if you want for anyone listening, if you want a really cracking good read on this, there's a wonderful book called Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus, written by a late friend of mine. He's no longer with us. A guy called Nabeel Qureshi. Nabeel was a Pakistani convert from Islam to Christianity. And that was in his book, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus. That's his testimony. So that was a New York Times bestseller, a million copies sold. It's an amazing read and it's really interesting to see his journey. Yes, there's apologetics along the way, but primarily it was that Jesus drew him in. He found Jesus’ compelling, not so much just the arguments of Christians, although those were helpful.

Kathleen Noller: And even then, it's important for those of us who love to remember that you can't argue someone into faith, right? Yeah.

Andy Bannister: To go, arguments are important to you, but there'd have been moments that were beyond argument too, I suspect. In fact, one of C.S. Lewis's great heroes, well, great friends, there was a guy called Austin Farrer, who was a theologian at Oxford. And Austin has this nice line where he says, arguments can't create faith, but they can create a climate in which faith is possible. By which he means if you've got intellectual objections like perhaps you had, arguments really matter to clear that debris away. But then there still comes that point of going, I must personally say yes to Jesus.

Kathleen Noller: Yes, that's a great quote. And that's very much in line with, I don't know what you think about the re-enchantment movement nowadays, but especially, you know, out of Eastern Orthodoxy, this idea of bringing people back to the numinous, the beautiful as a way to experience the divine not just to learn about it intellectually.

Andy Bannister: I think there's a lot of wisdom in there. Like everything, I'm so I'm a typical Brit. I'm always, yes, but.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Andy Bannister: There's a lot of good stuff there. And then again, what's interesting, personally for me, I found, yes, I'm an intellectual and I'm a thinker. I'm wired that way. But I also know, yes, some of the most profound experiences I've had of the presence and the closeness of God, the numinous, if you want to use that wonderful word, have been through either music, sometimes when a piece of music has really connected with me, sometimes a piece of Christian music, sometimes a piece of classical music, and then nature.

Kathleen Noller: Oh, nice.

Andy Bannister: I love the outdoors. I'm a hiker and mountaineer. That's what I like to do for fun. And there have been times where, you know, back in early June, when we were out in the USA, we took the kids to Yosemite. And, you know, you stand there at Glacier Point in Yosemite at sunset.

Kathleen Noller: Oh, nice.

Andy Bannister: And I was moved to tears because of going, "This is so beautiful and so incredible." Part of me is like, "How can anyone not see it as a god?" Because it's like written in this landscape.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: But I remember coming away just going, "Wow," just this incredible sense of awe—both the beauty and the awesomeness and the presence of God. So, it was a lovely numinous moment, which transcends arguments in some ways.

Kathleen Noller: Yes.

Andy Bannister: But I still have a good argument. The last question I want to ask you is one that I get different flavors of all the time.

Kathleen Noller: And it's some version of Christian hypocrisy.

Andy Bannister: Right.

Kathleen Noller: I get it in reference to pedophilia in the church a lot. That's a common one, you get it in reference to slavery—and yes, they abolished it, but the Christian nations perpetuated it. And so how do we deal with the fact that, yes, Christians will say, oh, you know, Christians are not perfect. The church is like a hospital. We're sinners too. But then shouldn't there be some fruits of the Spirit that we're seeing that make Christians look—like we were talking about earlier—different? Different than someone who doesn't have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them.

Kathleen Noller: So, what's the proper way to answer that?

Andy Bannister: Yeah. Oh, gosh. I mean, what a question. And a tough question, because it operates like—and that question can operate on many levels, can't it? There's an intellectual component to it, but also, I think, a kind of emotional, pastoral component to it.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: And some of the toughest questions have that. Um, yeah, there's a few ways of doing it. I think the first thing I would always want to introduce there is I want to be careful. I would want to get the focus off the church and onto Jesus as rapidly as possible, because the church is—I think Tim Keller said—is, you know, it's not a museum for saints; it's a hospital for sinners.

Kathleen Noller: Okay. Who?

Andy Bannister: And therefore, you’re going to get mess and brokenness in the church, because it's designed to attract people who are messy and broken. And in one sense, I'd be, you know, the kind of people who end up in the church—it's hardly a surprise that you're going to get problems. When you've got a community where you've got, you know, former liars, cheats, drunkards, you know, tax fiddlers, adulterers, and all the other debris in there, you're going to get some chaos. And so, this doesn't surprise me. On the other hand, when I look at some of the transformed lives, I think that's interesting, because the power of transformation is the interesting one to get. Yes, there's the mess and the debris, but there's also stories that, you know, that stand out. I mean, within—he'll be desperately embarrassed if he listens to this—but within the community, the C.S. Lewis community, you know, one of my dear friends is Tom Terrence.

Kathleen Noller: I was just going to mention him.

Andy Bannister: And

Kathleen Noller Yeah.

Andy Bannister: I mean, Tom, right—people who don't know Tom, you know, he met him. He was hilarious, because we spent some time with him, you know, a few weeks ago. When my kids met him, you know, he was this gentle, slow, Southern-spoken, grandfatherly type.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: My kids loved him. And when I told them his story, to go, "Yeah, he looks like that now." In his past, he was like the number two on the FBI Most Wanted list, because he was a vicious terrorist.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: He was a Ku Klux Klansman. And the FBI decided they were, you know, they weren't going to try and arrest him. They were just going to try and take him out, because he was such a monster. And, you know, he ends up not dying in a hail of bullets, but, you know, thrown into a jail. And, you know, it still took a while in jail before God got hold of him and dealt with him. And then he came out a transformed man. And has worked in reconciliation over the years. And you know his story, his book—Consumed by Hate, Redeemed by Love—that story. You read that story and you go, "Okay, what is going on here?" Because what is it? What is the power that can transform someone who is consumed by hatred into the utter difference? And to go, this church is full of those kinds of stories. Um, so that's the first thing. That doesn't mean we're not guilty of the other stuff, but I think that there is a lot of transformation when you look. It's the first thing. Secondly, when someone raises that question, it is to go—I would sometimes say, ’Do you know’

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: What it sounds to me like you're saying is that the church should be more like Jesus. And I agree with you, but let's look at the criteria that you're holding us to. You're saying the church should be more Jesus-like. And that’s why I think people get angry when the church doesn't measure up, because even our non-Christian friends know the thing should be different. And that's why it stinks when it isn't.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: But then I want to say to people, ‘Look, you've got a choice here. You either have to conclude that Jesus was who he claimed to be, and there really is a God, and he really does love us—mess and chaos and hypocrisy and all—and actually justice really does matter, and right really is right, and wrong really is wrong, and some of the things you've described really do matter. Or, on the other hand, Jesus was, I don't know, a liar, a deceiver, a lunatic. You know, you're in C.S. Lewis's trilemma—go wherever you like.’

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: Nothing matters. It's all particles in motion. You know, we're nothing more than clever primates whose job is to reproduce, in which case, who gives a flying monkey? Who cares how we treat one another? Nature doesn't care. Animals don't worry.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: Monkeys mistreat each other all the time. Human beings are just that. Yes, it annoys you, but get—just live with it, mate." that's the alternative. Which story would you rather live in? The story where the church sometimes makes mistakes and we should jolly well hold it to account and call people back to that message of Jesus? Or nothing matters—Nietzsche was right and its nihilism all the way down? I think, for all its faults.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: I want to—I go for the church story and the Jesus story, firstly, because I think it's true. But secondly, I think the alternative is so dire and so dark and so miserable that we can't live it out. And the fact we can't live it out probably tells me that it isn't true. So that's the kind of space that I might play in—while listening carefully, asking questions, and being willing to take a few blows. Don't feel you have to defend everything. Sometimes it's okay—and it's appropriate—to go, Yeah, that's a good question. I wish I had an answer.’

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: I get equally frustrated at times too.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: But the reason I hang on and then point to some of those examples of transformed lives and then point to the Jesus who is the one who does the transforming.

Kathleen Noller: That's a very helpful answer. And thank you so much for all of your help—for all of us listening that are going to be trained up in apologetics after listening to this and reading your book and ready to go have some of those one-on-one conversations and start to open up a little bit more. And um, I'd love to close with a quote from one of your books. This is from The Atheist Who Didn't Exist. I just personally like this quote. Um, you wrote: "If there is no God, then humankind is not designed, purposed, or planned. There is nothing we are intended to be. All that we hold dear—all our dreams, ambitions, goals, and accomplishments—are pure accidents of atoms. Furthermore, no matter how high we squirm up the greasy pole of existence, no matter how enlightened we become, all of it—the whole cathedral of human accomplishment—is destined to become no more than rubble, buried beneath the debris of the end of the universe: utterly ruined, pitch dark, cold as death, achingly alone." It reminds me a little bit of the Ozymandias poem—for the Christian precursor.

Andy Bannister: Yes, that might have been at the back of my mind. And, as you read that, say, 'Do you know what? I think also it reminds me of the famous Bertrand Russell quote.' Bertrand Russell, who wrote Why I Am Not a Christian, has this line where he talks about, yes, or the whole temple of man's achievement ends up buried beneath the rubble of a universe in ruins. I quote him in the…

Kathleen Noller: Yeah. Who?

Andy Bannister: In the book. And I think, without overdoing it, at the same time I think to present our friends—Kathleen—with that choice of going, the choice is not Christianity or, you know, some other version of rainbows, kittens, and unicorns over here where everything's happy and wonderful. Of going, if there is no God, you must be willing to live.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: with the reality of what that entails.

Kathleen Noller: Yeah.

Andy Bannister: You know, the atheist physicist Lawrence M. Krauss from Arizona State, I think, put it even more bluntly. He said, "We are a bit of pollution in the universe." And we might not like that, but that is the reality. But then I’ll say to my friends—I'll often, I often like, when with secular friends, I'll often use those kinds of quotes. When I come across them, I like to save them. And it's interesting when you use those with people and say to your friends, you know, "Do you agree with that?" Very rarely have I met somebody go, "Yes." Most people go, "That's horrific. There's a reason that Lawrence is not a motivational speaker." You know, it's depressing. And then go, "Yeah, well, now you've got a choice, right? Either evolution has played a cruel trick on us, it's thrown us up through time plus chance plus natural selection—and we're the only creature in the entire universe who cannot live with reality. You know, squirrels don't sit around having existential crises." "And evolution has tricked us and deceived us. Or the reason we can't live with that is we are not intended to, because that is not the real story. In which case, maybe we need to look at what the real story is. And the best real story that I see—at the best bet claim to be the real story—is Christianity. And at the very least, you can say to a friend, 'Take a look,' because if it's the Jesus way or total grim despair, surely, you'd be a fool at least not to look at Jesus. "Before you jump to conclusions, that could be life-changing in terms of just how awfully depressing they are if you go down the pit."

Kathleen Noller: Absolutely. So, on that note, thank you so much for all the wisdom that you've shared with us. And I hope that this has left—if anybody's listening who is not a Christian, who might be hostile to Christianity, entertaining Christianity, wherever you are—I hope this has given you some questions to ask other people, some food for thought and thank you for listening to the C.S. Lewis Institute's Kathleen Noller Podcast. God bless and see you next time.