We need all the encouragement we can get in evangelism, especially in our world today that sees Christians as the “bad guys.” Sam Chan helps us a ton.

Recommended Resources:

How to Talk about Jesus (Without Being That Guy): Personal Evangelism in a Skeptical World by Sam Chan.

Use the Bible to introduce your friends in Jesus. Discover how you can open the Bible with someone and allow them to meet Jesus for themselves.

Explore tools to help you live your faith and share Jesus at work through the City Bible Forum.

Transcript

Welcome to Questions That Matter. This is a podcast of the C.S. Lewis Institute. I'm your host, Randy Newman, and I'm delighted to have as my conversation partner today Sam Chan. Sam and I both think a lot and write a fair amount about evangelism, and we've both been encouraged by each other by our writings and interactions. So, Sam, welcome to Questions That Matter.

Randy, thank you so much for having me here.

I'm delighted. I should tell our audience a little bit more about you. Sam now lives in Sydney, Australia. He likes to call himself a global citizen. He was born in Hong Kong, raised in Australia. He's a medical doctor, and he has a PhD, because he just loves going to school I guess. He thinks and writes a great deal about evangelism. He connects with postmodern thinking, post-Christian audiences. He's a public speaker for City Bible Forum. He's written Evangelism in a Skeptical World and How to Talk About Jesus Without Being That Guy, along with some other books. But, Sam, let's just dive in. How to Talk about Jesus without Being That Guy. Who is that guy? Who's that guy that we don't want to be like?

I think I deliberately cheekily picked the title just to touch in on the feeling that we all have that there's something socially awkward about talking about Jesus. We just know somehow we've broken all social conventions by trying to talk about Jesus. And yes, it's okay to feel awkward. Like, just somehow we all feel it. There's an awkwardness, and I cheekily picked the title once…. It was only about three or four years ago. I was doing a breakout seminar at the Gospel Coalition Conference in April, and they asked me to talk on personal evangelism. So I picked the title, “How to Talk about Jesus without Being That Guy,” and it just filled the room. It was standing room only, and I thought, “Wow! I have touched a nerve here. Every Christian, I think it's a dissonance we feel. It’s in our DNA as a Christian to naturally want to tell our friends and family about Jesus, but at the same time, we just don't know how. There's just an awkward feeling, and we don't even know how to begin. And I think that's what the title picks on, how to talk about Jesus without being that guy, because I do feel like that guy when I talk about Jesus.

You're right. We have a category for persecution. Okay. We understand that category, and probably most of the people listening to this podcast have only experienced minor forms of that, but we don't quite know what to do with this, and it's a different form of persecution. So it's not, “Hey, if you keep talking about this, we're going to put you in jail!” It's more like, “Okay, if you keep talking about this, I'm going to walk away from you, and I don't want anything to do with you. You're just weird, buddy.” So that's the 21st century form of persecution for people in the Western world, in secular places like Sydney, Australia, and suburbs of Washington, DC, where I live. So it is a category that needs to be named, and I think you've done that, which is really helpful.

Yeah.

So… yes, please.

Yeah. Maybe to explain what has changed in the culture. There's so many things I can say. Rico Tice explained it so well when he said—and Rico Tice is a UK evangelist. He said there have been three phases of evangelism in recent Western history. Phase number one was the Billy Graham phase, where Billy could preach a 20-minute Bible talk, and he's basically asking people to believe what they've heard a thousand times before. So, “Come on, don't you think it's time? Believe. You know it's true. Believe.” The second phase was what Rico Tice calls the defeater belief phase, where they know what Christians believe, but they have defeater beliefs that stop them from believing. They can't trust the Bible, the problem of science, the problem of other religions, so then we had to remove the defeater beliefs, and they would believe. But now we're in the third phase of evangelism, and it's where the nonbeliever does not know what the Christian believes, they don't care, and deep down, they worry that what the Christian believes is evil, wicked, and wrong.

And so it's a funny form of “persecution,” in that the nonbeliever feels like they're the one being persecuted by the Christian. So we're the bad guy. So someone else explained it this way: Like fifty years ago, when we did evangelism, we had to convince the nonbeliever that being a Christian wasn't about being a good person. It's more than going to church. It’s more than not smoking, not drinking, not listening to rock and roll. But now it's flipped. When we evangelize, we're trying to convince people that being a Christian does not mean becoming a bad guy, a racist, a bigot, a homophobe, so now we're seen as the bad guy. And Tim Keller explained that we had pre Christendom, so the Roman ages. We had Christendom, when we had a lot of cultural Christianity, and that had its own challenges. But now we're post Christendom, and that's very different. People are not a blank slate. We've come out of Christendom. So what might have worked in Christendom or pre Christendom doesn't necessarily work in post Christendom.

An example would be in pre Christendom we talked a lot about, “Oh, look at how the early Christians, they cared for people during the pandemic,” and that made people say, “Wow! Look at Christians. They have love. They have grace. They have mercy. What's going on?” But in post Christendom, when we try to care for people in the pandemic, like there's that story where they chased out, I think, the Samaritans or something from Central Park, New York, because of their beliefs on marriage. So somehow we're seen as the bad guy. We are that guy now.

So many times, as Christians, we feel like we're the ones being persecuted, but the nonbeliever feels like they're the one being persecuted by Christians.

Man! Oh, that's really helpful, I think, of seeing the different phases and how things are different. And as you're talking, I'm thinking there's two things that I have to keep, keep, keep reminding myself. And the first is, I think it's always been difficult. Always. Evangelism wasn't easy in the Christendom realm. I mean, yeah, there was more shared common knowledge or common basis for conversation, but it was never easy. Number one. The other is it has always been supernatural.

I think I've talked about this on this podcast before, but Billy Graham's story is absolutely supernatural. It's ridiculous why people kept showing up in those arenas and those football stadiums. And we go, “Ah, the good old days when people used to come out to hear Billy Graham.” Okay. It was absolutely miraculous that anybody showed up to Billy Graham. So I find that oddly encouraging to me, of, “Oh, yeah, this is difficult, but you know it's not too difficult for God.” And so I think you have given us a bunch of ideas to try out in our new culture. Let's dig into a few. In your book, you have these evangelism tips, and so one of them is—you simply call it “Coffee, Dinner, Gospel.” Tell us what you mean by that.

Yeah. And I like to joke that I say “Coffee, Dinner, Gospel.” It's a bit like when you come home and you see a pile, a mountain of dirty dishes in your kitchen sink, and you don't know where to begin because the task of washing the dishes, it's too big, it's too global, it's too complicated. But then my wife will say, “Relax. Break it down into bite-sized, baby, concrete, achievable steps. Begin here. Begin. Start with a fork. Now wash a cup.” And bit by bit, “Oh, wow, the dishes are done!” And I think evangelism is the same. We think, “Oh, this is too big. It’s too global. It’s too complicated. How do I begin?” And I say in the book, “Relax, break it down into bite-sized, achievable steps,” and those steps are coffee, dinner, gospel. Simply begin with a coffee. How can I invite my friend to a coffee?

Because a coffee is a safe invitation. It's only about ten or twenty minutes of time. It's in public space. The conversation is only going to be about small talk. Like, “Look at the weather,” “What did you do on the weekend?” and you might talk about sports. But if you’ve done coffee a few times, then you can do an invitation for dinner or a meal. It could be lunch. And that's a bigger invitation, because it's one or two hours of your time. But it's in private space. And in private spaces, conversations go from small talk, the weather, and they start moving to values, and they start moving to worldview conversations. And if people feel safe, if they feel heard and understood and they're prepared to be vulnerable, and you've opened up private space, you can start having private space conversations, and you might start having gospel conversations because you've done coffee, dinner, gospel. I also joke in the book it's actually just another form of hospitality in disguise, and hospitality is everywhere in the Bible. I had not noticed it until now, and I joke that it's bit like roof racks for me, the Asian.

As an Asian kid growing up, you don't notice roof racks on the top of cars because Asians don't need roof racks. We don't go camping, and we don't go surfing. The reason why Asian parents make you go to college and get a degree is so you don't have to live on the ground when you have a holiday or vacation. You can actually afford the hotel or motel. But now I do need roof racks. And when I went to buy roof racks, I suddenly realized they are everywhere. Every car has roof racks. There are round ones, there are square ones, there are silver ones, there are black ones. They're everywhere! How had I not noticed? Well, I just had not been looking for them. And hospitality is the same. Now that you look for it in the Bible, it is everywhere. Almost every single New Testament writer uses the word hospitality at least once in their book or letter. And the idea is more frequent than the word itself. And it's Zacchaeus inviting Jesus to his home. It's Lydia having Paul over. It's Matthew, the tax collector, throwing a banquet for his friends, so they can meet Jesus. It's a Samaritan woman inviting Jesus, so that Jesus can meet her friends. And suddenly I realize, up until now, because I went to seminary, I've concentrated on the word gifts in the New Testament. So I noticed words like preaching, teaching, evangelism, but now I realize it's hospitality that provides the space for the word gifts to occur. And almost every evangelistic event or encounter in the New Testament happens around a meal. And I suddenly realize, hospitality, it's actually not about the eating, it's not about the food, it’s about the conversation, and often we make hospitality too complicated, when really just order a Domino's pizza, and you could have the same conversation without the washing up afterwards.

Is it possible to be a scientist and a person of faith at the same time? Are Christianity and science at odds with one another? I think there are a whole lot of people in our world who think that. Well, these apologetic questions and others are going to be explored in a prerecorded interview that we did with scientist and philosopher and mathematician and brilliant mind Dr. John Lennox. It's going to be on October 21 at 8:00 PM Eastern time, and Dr. Lennox is going to examine some of the latest scientific research and theories surrounding questions of the origins of life and concepts of the mind. He will demonstrate why a Christian approach to an understanding of the universe makes the most sense. So if you're a believer who's looking for a way to explain the validity of the Christian worldview to some of your friends who are more scientifically minded or scientifically oriented, this is a really, really important event, and it's free of charge, but you do need to register for it because we'd like to be able to have all those kind of connections in place. So to register for this, please go to www.cslewisinstitute.org/cosmic-chemistry. We sure hope you can make it for this event. Again, that's October 21 at 8:00 PM in the evening.

You know, this podcast is going in so many cultural directions. For me, hospitality is still a challenge. I need to do it, and I do. But it's not just this easy, natural thing for me. It is for some people, which is wonderful. But we talked earlier about Rico Tice, and he loves to use that phrase he came up with of, with evangelism, we need to cross the pain line. And for me, hospitality can have a pain line to it, inviting my neighbors to come over or getting together with them. Okay. So that doesn't mean I shouldn't do it. No, it's being, “Okay, Lord. This is a challenge for me. Would You fill me with Your Spirit? Would You give me the boldness that You have? Would you give me the compassion for these people that You have? I can't manufacture it within me, but You can use me.” And I find that very, I don't know, liberating in a sense. So thank you for that reminder about hospitality.

Well, let's dig into another one of your evangelism tips in this book. There's so much to this, but I want you to give us some insight about “Tell a Better Story.” The subtitle of that chapter is, “Make them wish that Christianity is true.” Speak to that for us a little bit.

Oh, wow! It was just yesterday! Oh, who was it? I wish I could credit the person. I'm going to say it was Jeffery Arthurs from Gordon-Conwell. He was saying that, and he thinks it's Blaise Pascal who had the saying…. Actually, now I know who it was. It's a guy called Max Jay, an apologist from Singapore. He was quoting Blaise Pascal, who said: You make them know the gospel is beautiful, and then they will believe it's true. So somehow we can tell a better story to show them that the gospel, the story about Jesus, is way more beautiful, way more imaginable, way more livable, and they realize it's more believable, it's true.

So I could go in so many directions right now with that, but let me go with this one: We can tell a better story. And this is what's happening: If you go to any college campus, and again, this is the Asian guy telling this story. And you go to a Christian group on campus in that college, the first thing you notice is, “Whoa! There are Asians everywhere! This Christian group is full of Asians.” And if you're the white guy, you are the only white guy in there. It can actually be awkward being a white guy in a Christian group on a university college campus. What is going on? And why are millions of people in Asia, Africa, South America, the Middle East becoming Christians? It's because the gospel is a better story for them.

Because this is how the story goes for an Asian: I used to believe in evil spirits. I used to live in darkness and superstition and fear. I used to live in an oppressive culture of over achievement where I had to succeed as a professional. But then I found Jesus, and Jesus set me free from all of that. And I see my Asian friends who haven't heard about Jesus yet, and I see the fear, the darkness, and the oppression they live under. And I feel sorry for them. I wish that they, too, could find Jesus and find the freedom that I have found. So that's the Asian conversion story. They have found a better story.

But the Western deconversion story goes the opposite way. It goes like this: I grew up in a family that believed in Jesus. I used to go to church. I used to believe in Jesus. I was trapped in fear, superstition, and rituals and authority figures. But then I stopped believing in Jesus, and I was set free from all of that. I see my friends who still believe in Jesus, who still have to go to church on a Sunday, who still live under authority figures, and I feel sorry for them. I wish they, too, could stop believing Jesus and find the freedom that I have found. So the Western secular deconversion story sounds like a better story than the Christian story. And that's why people in the West are deconverting.

So what we can do is show them we actually have a better story than that. And maybe what I'm having a subtle dig at, that the traditional ways that we've had of telling the gospel worked really well in a time of Christendom, but they're not working so well in a time of post deconstruction, post Christendom, and maybe we can take them back to stories of the Bible and show how Jesus actually gives us freedom, Jesus gives us liberty, Jesus gives us beauty, good, truth. And this could go in so many ways.

But when I'm with Uber drivers, and I talk about Jesus, I say, “Would you like to hear a story about Jesus?” And they go, “Yes.” I say, “Well, I'm going to tell a story about Jesus turning water into wine.” And I tell them the story, and then I say, “Did you know Jesus gave them way more wine than they could drink? Did you know they had already drunk enough? They were at the legal limit. Did you know if we do what Jesus did, we would lose our responsible server liquor license?” Like, “We would not do what Jesus just did.” And I say, “Why would Jesus give them more wine, too much wine, and too much good wine?” and they're at a loss. And I say, “Well, there are many reasons, but let me just give you one: Jesus is actually giving us a picture of what life with Jesus is like, both now and in the life to come. It's a life of abundance and blessing, and of course, there'll be suffering.” We're not free from suffering. But I say, “If you think by following Jesus that you will miss out, it's actually the opposite. By not following Jesus, we miss out. And that's why Jesus makes this the very first miracle, and that's the message of Jesus.” And in that stage, people want to talk about beauty, grace, mercy, so I'm giving them a better story than the one that they actually have.

Oh, man, so much to go after. But I want to press you on something. So let's go back to your Western deconversion story. The person says, “Yeah, I was raised in this. Christianity was oppressive, and now I'm set free.” Okay, so how do you then tell that person the better story that's better than the one they have now, where they feel so liberated, but better than what they had before, which they felt oppressive? What's the better story you want to tell that person?

Yeah. So I could, first of all, get them open to hearing about Jesus again. I could say something like, “Did you know right now millions of people in Africa, Asia, South America, and the Middle East are choosing to love, follow, and worship Jesus? So what are they seeing in the Bible that we have missed in the Western world?”

Okay, good, good.

So maybe forget our Western presuppositions. Maybe we're coming with a jaded lens. Let's let the Bible speak to us on its own terms. And I often make the joke. I say, Chinese tourists are the worst, and again, this is coming from the Chinese guy, okay? Because Chinese tourists stay in a bus full of other Chinese tourists. They only speak Chinese. If they get out of the bus, they eat at a Chinese restaurant, and they complain it's not as good as a Chinese food they get back home. I thought, well, you never got to see the country on its own terms. And someone joked, Nah, everyone's like that. The British tourists are like that. They just jump out, they drink in an Irish pub, and then they just jump back on the bus. And the American tourists, they just jump out the bus, they eat at McDonald's, and they jump back on the bus.

So no one ever sees a country on its own terms. They only see it as an American, a Brit, or a Chinese person. And it's the same when we come to Jesus. We don't see Jesus on His own terms. We see with our Western presuppositions. So I say: Jump out of the bus. Forget about the Jesus you think you grew up with. Forget about the Jesus you think you heard about and know. Let’s rediscover the Jesus in the Bible on His own terms. And I think more and more—I work for City Bible Forum. More and more, what works the best in our post-Christian world is just get people reading the Bible, and then they see Jesus on His own terms, on the Bible's terms. There's a reason why God has given us four Gospels with four different perspectives. Like, somehow this is Jesus on His own terms. And just read the Bible. We love using The Word One to One because it's the Bible… it's a UK publication, but it's the Bible reprinted in very friendly, modern font and colors, and they just start reading the Bible on its own terms. And I think the stories of Jesus just disarm people because we have no category for what Jesus really does.

I'm not familiar with that resource, The Word One to One. I'm going to look up, find out about it. That sounds great. And of course, we love Christianity Explored, because that's the basis of their thing, of let's get people into the Bible.

As you're talking, the phrase keeps coming to my mind of, “What if? What if?” And I think that that's a phrase we want to say to people. Let’s just say they're one of those deconstruction stories, “Well, I grew up in this and now this,” and I want to say, “Well, what if the Christian message is actually different than the one you grew up with?” or, “It’s different than the way you perceive the way you grew up?” Because I don't want to always throw their early Christian experience under the bus. Some people are very critical of it, but it might have been a really good experience, but for other reasons, they walked away.

And then there's the other side of, “What if, over time, this current feeling of liberation doesn't hold up?” because, you know, there are a lot of people who feel liberated, but after a while, they also feel empty or they feel hopeless. I just read… it was a biography about David Foster Wallace, great novelist, tragic person, who took his own life. But the person who was writing this said that he embodied the common flavor of his generation, which was irony. But he found that, while irony was good at critiquing something, irony was useless in finding any kind of hope or redemption. And so I think I want to say that to people. “Yeah, I'll go along with you, with some of your ironic jokes and sarcastic and making fun, but what if there are some things that we shouldn't be ironic about? What if there are some things that actually are sacred.” Now, I'm doing my version. This isn't necessarily the things that you're saying in your books, but I think it's resonating, right? Am I close?

I love what you're saying! Yes, that's right. So deconstruction is good. It's a part of a necessary growing process. But then after deconstruction, you have to reconstruct a stronger version than what you once had. And maybe that's where people are. They deconstructed, but they have no reconstruction. And that's part of your point about irony. I was talking to Julie-anne Laird. She's an amazing evangelist from Melbourne. She does a lot of personal evangelism and public evangelism. She was doing university work in Melbourne, and a few years ago I asked her, “So what's Christian work like in university campuses right now?” She says, “Oh, it's fantastic!” I say, “Why? What do you mean?” She said, “We had so many conversions last year!” And she says, well, what it is, is that these young adults, when they hit the campus, they're lost, just like you're saying, Randy, and they have no purpose because they know what they're free from. So that's liberty, freedom. They don't know what they're free for, so they're deconstructed, but they're not reconstructed. So they're after purpose. They have no direction.

The other thing they're after, obviously, is community. So if you push the individual freedom button too far, you actually have no community. You have no meaning. You have no purpose. You actually don't know why you're on campus. So you’ve spent your whole time being told what to do by parents and teachers and authority figures. Suddenly you have no one telling you what to do. They actually don't know what to do. So there's no purpose, there's no meaning, there's no community, and people become Christians because they want purpose, they want meaning, they want community. But also they want freedom from anxiety, because anxiety… and of course Christians also suffer from anxiety. I’m not saying by being a Christian, you’re set free from anxiety, but people are coming with sky high levels of stress, depression, and anxiety. And they're just saying, “I just need something. I just need freedom from this.” And it's interesting, all the little habits that are healthy for mental health, things like sleep, thanksgiving, prayer, meditation, outdoors, and they all make sense if there's a good God to pray to, to thank, and a God who forgives us. So somehow the Christian worldview makes the best sense of those healthy mental practices.

The other thing she said is a lot of young adults are turning up saying, “Hey, just tell me what to do about God. I know there's a God. Just tell me what to do about this God.” So often they're a lot closer than we think they are.

I regularly talk about all of the resources that we put together at the C.S. Lewis Institute. I want to highlight one right now. It's our Keeping the Faith, and it is a whole library and collection of resources for you, parents and grandparents. It's a whole entire program with courses and materials that have been developed to equip you, parents and grandparents and other caring adults, for intentional discipleship of the children that God has placed in your life. And we've got videos, we've got articles, we've got study courses. This is one of the things we've made as a major emphasis on our newly designed, award winning website. And I really want to encourage you to check it out. And even if you are not a parent, that you'll check it out and recommend it to the parents that you know or perhaps use it at your church in Sunday school. It's a wealth of things, resources for equipping the next generation of disciples.

That's so encouraging! Yes. Another way of looking… I've heard people talk about that many people today need to move through… There was a time of enchantment. There was so much wonder about the world. And then there was a disenchantment. Things didn't turn out the way I thought they were, or they didn't live up to their promise. But then there can be, for people, a re-enchantment. And it's not just go back to the old way. It's no, no, okay, there were things that enchanted us that point us to a greater, another world, that whole C. S. Lewis other world. And yeah, I think our world is getting very anxious and unhappy and unsatisfied, and we have some opportunities to say, “Well, what if there's a different way of living life? What if there's a different way to think about God? What if there's a different way to encounter this God?”

Well, let me dig into one more of your evangelism tips, and then we're going to bring this to a close. Because if I do the whole thing, they won't buy your book, and we want them to buy your book. That's important. But you have one item; I was intrigued with this. You said your evangelism tip is, “Become their unofficial de facto chaplain. You are their connection with the sacred.” Speak to that a little bit.

Yeah. And so, “Become the unofficial de facto chaplain is my tip.” And up until now, a lot of evangelism training was how to give a twenty-minute Bible talk. And I do that, at an event that someone has invited a friend to. How to walk up to a stranger at a train or university campus and tell them about Jesus. And they're all good, but how do I tell my friends and family about Jesus? People that I see over and over and over again, every day, and I say, “Well, become their unofficial de facto chaplain, so become the person that they come to in a time of crisis.” Everyone will go through a time of crisis, and they will need you to speak on behalf of God to connect them with the sacred and give them some sort of meaning and purpose and something transcendent in this moment of crisis. And we earn that right to become their unofficial de facto chaplain by being the one who has been listening to them, the one who has been understanding.

I remember Craig Springer from Alpha quoting someone else, saying, “Home is where you're understood.” So people always go searching for a home away from home, somewhere, someone who understands them. So be that someone who understands them and then be the one who offers to pray for them. So often when people say, after they've shared, you know, “We’ve just discovered our child has learning difficulties,” we could say, “Oh, my wife and I, we pray every night for our friends. Would it be okay if we prayed tonight for this?” And a week later check in on them. “Hey, we prayed. How are things going?” So earn the right to become their unofficial de facto chaplain. I like to joke that, in the past, if we learned evangelism, often we were taught how to evangelize like a preacher, and a homiletic teacher or preacher would teach the evangelism class. I'm saying now: Learn to evangelize like a counselor, because counselors, they learn to ask the right questions. And more and more in evangelism seminars, I've noticed people are doing New Testament studies, and they're quoting statistics like, “Did you know Jesus Himself asked almost 300 questions?” Jesus himself was asked almost 200 questions, but only answered those questions directly eight times. He usually used to answer a question with a question.

So, “Jesus, by what authority do you do these things?” And Jesus would say, “I don't know. By what authority does John the Baptist do his things?” Or, “Jesus, should we pay taxes?” “I don't know. Show me a coin. Whose head do you see on this coin?” And that means often all we have to do when we evangelize, when someone tells us something, we can just ask them a question, like, “Tell me more. Wow! Why did you ask me this?” And I've learned more and more when someone asks me a question, my first response now is, “Wow, why? Tell me more. Why are you asking me this question?”

Yeah, yeah. Good stuff, Sam. Good stuff. And maybe this is going back to your comment about hospitality. It's not just hospitality, but it's real compassion for people. You know, they tell you about difficulty with disease or a job or their child or something, and offering to pray and remembering to come back, “Hey, how is that going?” Well, that's expressing love. That's expressing God's love to people. And you're not using it as a ploy. You're not using it as, “Ah, if I say this, they'll ask me about Jesus.” No, it's showing real compassion for people, and the gospel can flow through that, not automatically, not easily, but we need to be doing more of that. And our world is starving for compassion now.

So you've given us a lot to think about, Sam Chan, and you've also given us a lot of good stuff to read. I want to recommend all of Sam's books to you, especially this one, How to Talk about Jesus without Being That Guy. Sam, may the Lord bless you and your ministry there in Australia. Come visit us sometime. We'll see if we can get you to be a speaker for us at the C.S. Lewis Institute. We'd love to have you.

That would be fantastic! Thanks so much. Thanks for having me, Randy. For the listeners out there, I've been a fanboy of Randy Newman for like over twenty years. Today, it feels like I've met Bruce Springsteen. But even better.

Oh, my! We might have to do some selective editing of this podcast. Anyway, Bruce Springsteen will be my next guest. No, he won't. I'm just kidding. Thank you, listeners, for listening to Questions That Matter. We hope that this and all of our resources at the C.S. Lewis Institute help you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and help you pursue discipleship of the heart and mind. Thanks.

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