It’s the most wonderful time of the year, isn’t it? But for many of our friends, it’s a time with nothing more to offer than presents, egg nog, and songs about Santa and Frosty. On this episode’s conversation with Rico Tice, we explore how to offer people the best news they can ever hear - the very heart of what Christmas is all about.

Recommended Resources:

• • Christianity Explored
  • The Ultimate Christmas Wishlist by Rico Tice (2022)
  • Other Christmas books from The Good Book Company

Transcript

Welcome to Questions That Matter, a podcast of the C.S. Lewis Institute. I'm your host, Randy Newman, and on Questions That Matter, we delve into discipleship, and we want to do it as deeply and as thoroughly and as thoughtfully as possible. And we also want to see how outreach evangelism fits into that and how God can use us. And so I'm delighted that today my conversation partner is my friend Rico Tice. Rico is the founder of Christianity Explored Ministries. He's the Senior Associate Minister at All Souls Church, Langham Place, in London. Rico and I just were together not too long ago at a series of conferences on evangelism, and I love getting together with my friend Rico. Rico, welcome to Questions That Matter.

Thanks so much, Randy. It's lovely to be here, really lovely.

Well, you have just written a book, like several of your other books, that are designed to be given out to non-Christians that we know. And for Christmas, this is a book called The Ultimate Christmas Wishlist. But we want to talk about that and how we can use this tool and other tools at this time of year, inviting our friends to worship at church at Christmas time. But let me back up a little bit. Tell our listeners about Christianity Explored. I don't want to assume that everybody knows about this great ministry, and it really is a great ministry, and I'm grateful to be connected to it. So give us a little sales pitch.

Well, Randy, if you've got an Englishman that talks like me, the key, in terms of his stereotype is to be arrogant, so I'll begin the podcast by saying something arrogant, and that is that if God was here, and we said to him, “What’s the best way to do evangelism?” I think he would say, “Gosh, it'd be good to have a chat about it. Why don't you go through the books I've given you about My Son,” and go through the biographies he's given you? And so what we do on Christianity Explored is we just try and enable people to look at Jesus in Mark's Gospel. But, and this is very much your territory, say to them, “As you look at this, so please have a look at the document. Don't let someone else make up that decision for you, but ask any question you want.” So we begin the little series, the course with, “If God was here and you could ask Him any question, what would it be?” So we're huge on questions, and we're huge on Jesus. And what we found is that, in Mark's gospel, just about every verse is either about the identity of Jesus, who He is, or the mission of Jesus, why He came, or the call of Jesus, what it means to follow Him. And therefore, because that's so simple, people feel they can teach it to their friends, or they can read it for themselves, because that's the code, and it's such a simple code.

So I guess that's what we're doing. Lots of countries have picked it up. We try and find passionate advocates who say, “I want to take it back to Uganda.” We've got a huge work in Uganda. A guy called Shadrach found it and picked it up. And so we try and find people who are local to their country, who are passionate about people in their own country hearing Mark’s gospel. So that's that's the strategy, really. And we found that there's something incredibly clear and simple and yet so deep about doing Mark’s gospel and doing “identity, mission, call,” in it. So that's really what we're about.

I love it. I love it. So people come together. They eat a meal together? Is that right?

Yeah. Relationship is massive. So we don't treat people as human resources, but as people made in God's image. So we want to celebrate them. It's amazing. They'll come along and have a listen and ask questions. And you've got to make sure you've got leaders who really are delighted to meet them. So the leaders are pleased with the Lord and they're pleased with the fact they've got people to talk to. I look for people who've got those two passions, and then say, be a good listener, make sure you're listening to the questions people have got, but at the same time unashamedly saying, “Let’s look at the person of Christ.”

Nice. Well, we're going to put some links in the show notes, so that people can find out more about Christianity Explored. Maybe they can even consider the idea of hosting one in their home, at their church. But let me take things out a little bit wider. So you and I were just together. There was a series of conferences. We were in London, Manchester, Edinburgh, Belfast, and you're there all the time, but I was the outsider who came in, and two things struck me: One is, first, this is a difficult mission field. There's a very, very small percentage of people in the UK who go to church on Sunday, and not even all of those are Christians. So this is a tougher place, I think, or I don't know. But at the same time, I was so impressed. God is doing some really great things. I had a chat with a pastor in Edinburgh. He said to me the last several years, and he's been in ministry for 30 years or more, the last several years have been the hardest, but they've been the best. And I was so impressed that people are hungry for answers. So give us a little bit of a report. What do you see God doing there in the UK? Particularly in London or anywhere.

Yeah, Brother, I think the Sovereign Lord is refining his church, so the numbers are smaller. But that's because there was so much nominalism. So many people went along because it was the right thing to do on a Sunday. It was part of being culturally English. It's now, because of the uniqueness of Jesus and His high and holy standards, particularly because of issues over human sexuality, it's now not particularly cool to go to church and to be Christian. And therefore I think our churches have got much purer. And I think, when people now look at Christians and they look at the church, actually, they do see a difference, and that's made it more fruitful. So, yes, the numbers are much smaller, but those who are Christians are often real Christians. So a survey called Talking Jesus was done just before the pandemic that said 67% of people in this country had a Christian friend they liked. And what did they like about that Christian friend? Selflessness. So Christians, fewer number, but genuinely trying to live out their faith.

The battle always, Randy, is to is to get Christians who are living a godly life to see that, at the heart of godliness, is evangelism. So often people think that to be godly means to keep to yourself a bit, and to be godly means to be like God, who sent His Son to save the world. So there is a battle almost culturally with English people. We're not terribly extrovert. We’re not very good at asking questions. But at the same time, when I look at the churches, I think a lot of churches have got people in them who are living authentic Christian lives. It's just getting them to speak.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well done.

By the way, your outline, your A to Z when you came over was so helpful for people, because I think a lot of our evangelism is at tea. So you presume someone has got a Christian background. They're quite low hanging fruit. When you proclaim the gospel, they’ve got all these stories from primary school in them. They had a Christian granny. And therefore they were quite ready for faith. I think, Randy, what you did so helpfully, because you've been in tougher areas of The States and come from a Jewish family, is you said, “No, no. If at Christmas you get a friend who's at A in terms of absolute unbelief and atheism and cynicism, and you get them to E, where they're beginning to think there might be a God and they're beginning to enjoy being with a Christian person, that's been a super Christmas,” but it doesn't mean they're yet converted. There's a lot of learning Christ to go on, but we've got to learn to be in that journey. And I think that, over here, it's taking longer for people to come to faith. So therefore my job is to get people to hold their nerve, keep being godly, keep praying, keep speaking, keep asking questions.

And then the Four Cs are causing people to look around. So there's been COVID, which has made death much more real. There's climate change, which means that we don't know where the world is going. There's economic crisis in Europe. Inflation is at 10%. People really are worried about paying gas bills. And lastly, there's conflict in Europe, Ukraine. Now, all those things have made a lot of the population, we think about 25%, question their worldviews. So then you've got to get Christians good at asking questions. Just what's happening? What's your assessment of what's going on? Do you ever think about this spiritually? Just getting people to ask questions, knowing that an awful lot of people are thinking, “Gosh, these are quite dark times.”

I loved doing the work together with you, Rico. It was really fun being there together. But maybe I need to do a little translating in case some of our listeners aren't familiar with my A to Z, or A to Zed, scale. What I've said to people is there was a time, at least in the US, and I think in the UK, where you could assume a certain level of common ground. So if A to Z, A to Z is a scale of unbelief, Z being, “Oh, they're ready to become a Christian.” A is as far away as you can possibly imagine. We used to be able to start a conversation at letter T, but more and more people are much further down, and so we're at letter D, and so we start conversations with less assumptions, maybe no assumptions. Well, “Do you ever think much about spiritual stuff?” Or, like you're saying is, “Well, in light of what's going on in the world, there's a lot of problems, there's difficulty. Where do you find good news? Where do you find hope?” So I do think that theme of hope is one of the ones that we really need to learn how to articulate and think through.

So let's shift a little bit, because that's a major theme in this book that you've written. You've written a short book, The Ultimate Christmas Wishlist: What If You Could Get What You’re Really Hoping For? And I love that The Good Book Company does this every year. They come out with a short—this is 62 small pages—evangelistic book to give to non-Christians. A few years ago, The Good Book Company put together Glenn Scrivener's great evangelistic book called The Gift. I've used that a bunch. So every year, there's a new tool, and you've come out with this one. And hope is a major theme in your book. In fact, it's one of the very first things. So give us a little taste. How does Christmas offer us hope and build up a sense of hope for us?

Well, Brother, it's interesting, isn't it? Pastorally, as you get older, Christmas at one level gets worse and worse, because the people you love gradually are not there. So my mother was always the cornerstone of our Christmases, and she died in 2010. And Christmas will never be the same without her. She was a nurse. She was just an amazing lover and celebrator of people, a carer, nurturer, funny. So every Christmas I just miss her. I'm a bit low, and you're just picking that up, and I sort of pick up the time that I—it's a rite of passage, I think—when I had to clear out my parents' house after they’d both died. But you look at these photos, you think of the Christmases and you think, “Well, what was that all about?” I remember putting into the skip my parents lovely double bed because it was done just before the asbestos legislation came out, or some legislation that meant you couldn't recycle it because it was dangerous, and likewise their sofas, and they were lovely. So you're skipping these things that were at the center of their home, and it makes you ask big questions. So that's the hope thing.

And then of course, what you're asking, then, of course, is, “Will there be a day of reunion? Will I ever put my arms around these people I love so much?” And of course, that's what I ultimately want at Christmas. I'd like to see them again. Well, the gospel says Jesus got through death, but the amazing thing is that He can get us through. It wasn't the resurrection of Jesus that so rocked the ancient world, it was the resurrection of the dead, that we're all going to be raised. Now, that means there's a judgment for us all. So it's a warning, but it's a great hope. So that was one of the things I was trying to pick up, and saying, actually, Jesus, when he comes, and I pick up Isaiah 9:6, those predictions about the One who will come, that He’s the everlasting father. I then show Jesus fulfilling that in Luke’s gospel by rising from the dead and saying, “Look, we long for this hope.” And then likewise in the book, I pick up some of those other titles for Jesus in Isaiah. I show how they were fulfilled in Luke's gospel, and then say, “Look, don't you think you can believe them for ourselves?” So that's what we do.

Should I keep going? Hope is one. And then another thing that we long for at Christmas is purpose. And again, Jesus as the One who rises from the dead gives us the most incredible purpose. I never knew this verse in 1 Corinthians 15:58, “Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.” Well, that's an amazing thing. He gives me purpose. The resurrection isn't just about hope in the face of death. It's also everything you do now matters, because you're in a story where, if you're serving Jesus, it all counts for eternity. So, again, people are longing for purpose.

And then lastly, they're longing for peace. And as he comes, because he's not just the everlasting Father, he's the Prince of Peace. He dies on the cross not only so that we can be right with God, but also so that at Christmas, amidst the rows, we can be right with each other. So the Prince of Peace brings us forgiveness, and that's the mechanism of reconciliation. So I'm trying to go, “Here’s the prophecy of Isaiah, here's the fulfillment in Luke, and here are the felt needs of purpose, peace, and hope that we've all got, but actually that He delivers.” So that's the aim of the book.

I regularly talk about all of the resources that we've put together at the C.S. Lewis Institute, and I want to highlight one right now. It's our Keeping the Faith, and it is a whole library and collection of resources for you, parents and grandparents. It's a whole entire program with courses and materials that have been developed to equip you, parents and grandparents and other caring adults, for intentional discipleship of the children that God has placed in your life. And we've got videos, we've got articles, we've got study courses. This is one of the things we've made as a major emphasis on our newly designed, award winning website. And I really want to encourage you to check it out. And even if you are not a parent, that you'll check it out and recommend it to the parents that you know or perhaps use it at your church in Sunday school. It's a wealth of things, resources for equipping the next generation of disciples.

Oh, I love it! Yes. So just looking quickly at the table of contents, five chapters: What would you like for Christmas? And then your answers are hope, peace, purpose, confidence. And I do think you're right, this can really be to say to people, “It’s Nice to have a Christmas wishlist and get gifts. I mean, that's fun.” And I think we need to be careful that we don't put a kibosh on that. I like giving gifts, and I like getting gifts, and I think most people do. But then there's also the, “Well, yeah, but there's something much more that we're longing for and hoping for.”

I do think there is a growing sense in our world of cynicism and “Oh, nothing matters. Everything is—at best, it's just a joke. It’s just material for a comedian to make a joke about.” And I saw the dichotomy when I was over there in the UK that, in the popular culture and, I don't know, the aura around, there was just a whole lot of cynicism. “Oh, yeah, well, you know.” But there was such a sense of joy and hope and even I want to say optimism among God's people. And it was really a stark contrast. So I think that Christmas is a great opportunity for us to express that hope, but not in a silly, trivial way of, “Isn’t this a wonderful time of year? Aren't the decorations nice?” Well, I do like the decorations. It is nice. Lots of lights and stuff, but there's this hope that we have in the gospel that's really quite profound. You've done a whole thing on hope as part of Christianity Explored, in addition to this Christmas book. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Well, yeah, I mean, Randy, look, I got converted because my godfather was killed in a cliff fall on the 15^th of August, 1982, and rather like COVID, where the nation suddenly realized death was real because the death count from COVID was on the news every night. And so, in the Bible, conversion is often a waking up. In 1982, when that phone call came through, my godfather, he was my dad's older brother, had a little boat moored on a small island, went for a walk on a cliff path, slipped, and in very good health, fell to his death. So it was a very sudden death. And I realized no one in my family had any answers to that. And it was a taboo subject, death. It was a taboo at school, it was a taboo at home, you didn't discuss it, and suddenly you're confronted with it. And I think that has always meant that, in Christianity Explored, and in the little course, Hope Explored, which this book is really a summary of, so we've written a little three week course to follow up Christmas, that really—the book has a little summary of where we'd love people to come and ask questions. But that sense of, “What do you do in the face of our mortality and the fragility of life?” is always central to me, because it was how I got converted.

I'm embarrassed to admit, even on audio recording, that I don't think I've heard your whole story. I know I've heard you tell a bit of your testimony, but I don't think I knew this bit, about your godfather's death. Can you tell us a little bit more about how that process unfolded?

Well, I think I'd been brought up with—my mother was a churchgoing Anglican, and I think my father, who was a good guy, just a little bit epitomized that religion isn't for alpha males. If you're a successful man, you don't really do God. So mother would take us along now, and again, but he didn't really bother with church, but a lovely dad. But then suddenly, when I was confronted with the death of my godfather, I was like, well, “What’s the answer to this?” So it really came out of the blue. And then there was a maths teacher called Christopher Ash at my school who ran a little Christian Union. There were 650 boys, and 15 went to the Christian Union. But he said to me, “Look, when Jesus got through death, it means He can get us through.” And I remember thinking, “If that's true, it's the most important thing in the world,” because eternity’s eternity. God had been—you know that verse, 2 Corinthians 4:4, “The god of this age blinds the minds of unbelievers.” Well, the devil had blinded my mind to just this age. The death of my godfather meant that I woke up, and God had put eternity in my heart, Ecclesiastes, and I suddenly thought, “What do you do in the face of death? Life is so short,” and then wonderfully, there was a maths teacher there. If there are any teachers listening, God bless you. Keep trying to speak to pupils, even if it gets you sacked. But he said to me, “Look, if Jesus rose from the dead, He can get you through,” and I can remember thinking, “Well, we're going to be dead such a long time, and this life is so fragile.”

So I think that sense of, can't you wake up to the fact life is so short and that only Jesus is the one who's risen? And so that, I think, has been central to my story. And I've buried nine of my school friends as a pastor, so you keep putting people into the grave who have been friends and you've known, and you can't believe the fragility of life.

You know, I didn't realize you and I had something else in common. We've got several things in common, although I've never played rugby. And you played rugby. And that explains a whole lot about Rico Tice. In case any of you want to know, watch five minutes of rugby and say, “Ah! Now I get Rico Tice much better.” I've never played rugby. I've watched rugby, and I thought, “Ooh, that looks painful. I don't think I would go anywhere near that.” But it was the death of a friend that prompted me to start, “Okay, wait a minute. I’ve got to stop ignoring this issue.” I really got into absurdism. I watched a lot of Woody Allen movies. I read a lot of absurd literature. But a friend of mine died. He lived on the same dorm floor with me at Temple University. He also fell to his death, a horrible, tragic thing. And I remember sitting at his funeral thinking, “Okay, I’ve got to get some answers, because just getting drunk or just watching funny movies or just reading absurd books, that's not helping me.” And that's what prompted me to read the Gospel of Matthew and also read C.S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity. But it was Matthew's gospel that was so powerfully cutting through. I think that's why I love your ministry in Christianity Explored. It lets God's two-edged sword do the cutting, if I can say it that way.

Yes. And, Brother, it's interesting, isn't it? In Luke's gospel, I always think Jesus’s parable of the rich man and Lazarus is fascinating, because the rich man is told, “Son, remember in your lifetime you received your good things,” so he didn't have a problem till the day he died. God had so lavished his gifts upon this rich man that it was only judgment that was a problem. And I think that, again, in our evangelism, we're sort of waiting for something to go wrong. I mean, I mentioned the Four Cs just now, but actually I'm going tonight to a school carol service. There are a number there whose only problem is the day they're going to die, because God has so lavished His gifts upon them that if you're dealt two aces and two kings in the card game of life, it's quite hard to play that hand badly. So you need to, with a smile, say, “Look, life is short. Do you have a hope that goes beyond this life?”

I mean, I'm saying this to you, and I hope I'll have the courage to say it tonight. I always try and preamble that by saying, “Look, I really don't mean to be intense, and this friendship is important, but please don't be cross, but there are a number of our friends that aren't here. Now, what do you make of that?” And that's why I've written that little book. You know, tonight I'm going to give it out at the school. It's an Old Boys of the school carol service in central London, but written because actually, some of the people listening here, you've got relatives, and they're not going to have a problem until the day they die. And we need to say to them, “Look, are you ready for that day, when I think God will ask you two questions. So, number one, He’ll say, ‘Do you know Me? I made you to know Me,’ and secondly, ‘Have you had your wrongdoing forgiven?’” Now, that's a pain line. Now, they might not want to know, but some of them will want to know.

Now, make sure you ask the level one questions first. Level one is just, “How’s the family? How's life? What's happening with the rugby?” Just enjoy and celebrate people. But level two is, “Have you done any thinking in the light of where we're at?” Randy, the other thing you've taught me, if I can just give you a plug here, is your talk on Acts 14:17, which is, “Yet He has not left Himself without testimony. He's shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven, crops in their seasons. He provides you with plenty of food and fills your heart with joy.” That's the other side. I just don't want to be in misery. I want to say, “Look, life's great! Where do you think it all comes from?” So I want to be a happy evangelist, as well as a sad one, but I want to try and draw people to those two realities. And the only way I'll do it is I've got to have my identity in the grace of God. So as I go today, what I've got to remember amongst all these blokes from my old school is—do you use the word blokes in America? I don't know if you use that word. Men. These guys—is whether I'm accepted or rejected doesn't make me valuable. What makes me valuable is Christ died for me. So my identity is in Christ, as I smile and graciously ask a question or hand over a book. If my identity is in, I've got to be good enough for them to accept me and hear me. I'm never going to get to the point where I offer a book or ask a question, but if I go, “I'm being sent by the General of the whole universe, the Lord Jesus. I'm just a mucky private. I might be going to a colonel, but I'm passing on a message from the General, and I'm saying, here's a book.” That takes the pressure off of, when my identity is in Christ. It's not in their opinion of me.

We here at the C.S. Lewis Institute are delighted to tell you our newly redesigned website has been given an award. We're an early winner of the Gold Award by the dotCOMM Awards Agency. They hand out very few of these awards for excellence in web creativity and digital communication. This year's competition had entrants from 2500 entries or even more. Designers, developers, content producers. I mean, it was amazing. And we are so very grateful that we were given this award. We thank you for your prayers for this ministry and support for our ministry. This redesign took a lot of time, a lot of work, and a lot of money. And we would love for you to be joining us as a financial supporter of our ministry for paying for these kinds of things and also the great materials that we produce and the events that we do. So please prayerfully consider, if you're not a regular monthly supporter of our ministry, we'd love to have you as a partner in that way. Or if it's only occasional gifts, we take those, too. But we really need your help. So we hope that you can go to our website, cslewisinstitute.org/give. Thanks.

You used a phrase in there, you said about that's the pain line. This is one of the most helpful concepts I've learned from you. Tell us what you mean by that. You wrote about that in your book, Honest Evangelism, and you said that when we evangelize, we have to cross the pain line. What do you mean by that?

Well, what I'm saying is there is never a natural moment. We’re always waiting for the natural moment to hand over a book, now maybe once in a blue moon, but always, because there's so much at stake, their souls are at stake, eternity is at stake, the devil's against us. There will always internally be a butterfly in my stomach or perhaps an eagle, as I'm trying to say something. So I've got to realize, that moment tonight when there's one guy I played rugby with there, and as I give him a book and thank him for coming, and say, “Look, do you want to have a read? And maybe we'll chat about it in the new year.” That's always going to be—because even if he takes it graciously, there might be a look in his eye of, “Oh, Rico’s going on again,” and it has marginalized me. Being a Christian amongst that group has meant… I mean, they tolerate me, but they don't celebrate me, and I'd like to be accepted by them, and I'm not really, and I'm just going to have to realize my acceptance is with Jesus, not with them.

I think this is such an important theme in evangelism today, because there was a time, at least in America, there was a time when if you raised the issue of the gospel or Christianity or faith in any kind of broad way, the vast majority of people would think, “Oh, that's nice.” I mean, the worst you would get is, “That’s for you. That’s not for me,” sort of a neutral thing. But today it's, “Wait a minute. You're one of those? You believe what? You're the problem. You're the bigots in the world,” and there is a real cost in some situations, certainly not all and maybe not most, but we do need to prepare ourselves of, “You know what? I may be rejected if I do this.” I mean, if I said, “You know, I'm going to buy twenty copies of this book, and I'm going to give this out to people I know, and I'm actually going to go walk around and give some to my neighbors.” I need to be ready for the fact that one or two or I don't know how many of the people will say, “No. And don't ever give me any of this blankety blank stuff again.” And I just need to be prepared. And so that's why when you say our identity is in Christ, that's what's so crucial. It's, “Okay, they rejected me, but God hasn't rejected me. My acceptance is based on what Christ has done, and so I have this firm identity that, it hurts when other people say these things, but that's okay. I can handle that, but it's not without cost.” And you've helped prepare us for that kind of thing.

I think that's exactly right, Randy. Now what I've got to do is be emotionally self aware, and some Christians just aren't, where they blunder in and their tone is hopeless. They're a bit rude, so please save us from that. The fruit of the Spirit, love, kindness, gentleness, self control, are incredibly important, but at the same time, sometimes I'll do nothing wrong, and I'll get rejected because I'm the aroma of life to people who love darkness. So I've got to get that balance. It's good to have a spouse or a friend who can just give me feedback on how I do come across, to make sure I'm not an oaf. With a smile and a look… and it is. And that's why I called the book I wrote Honest Evangelism, because we're not being honest with Christians about the cost of this, and then when you suddenly do get hammered. You very graciously hand a book over, and you find that person really won't speak to you again. When that does happen, at least you're ready for it, because you know you've been gracious. It's the content of the book that they don't like. It's the gospel they don't like.

But secondly, I called it Honest Evangelism because we've got to be honest with non-Christians about what's at stake. I mean, at the very least, I want to say, “Do you have a hope that goes beyond death?” To just see what they say on that. But we've got to get to the eternal issues to do the gospel properly. The gospel is not, “Oh, Lord, my life is empty. Fill me.” The people I'm seeing tonight at this have got their lives full of wonderful things God has made. They just haven't thanked the Creator. The gospel is not, “Oh, Lord, my life is empty. Fill me.” The gospel is, “Lord, I'm an offense to You. Rescue me!” The English don't like to be told they're an offense. I know we are, but we don't like to have that communicated. But you don't get to the cross until you realize you're an offense.

Well, let me wrap this up and bring it to a close with one reminder, and I do hope that people find this encouraging. There may be some people that we give this book or give an evangelistic book or give a New Testament, and some people may say, “No, leave me alone. Get out of here.” But then six months, a year, several years later, they may pick that book up and read it. And I love the fact that when I was in high school and first met this group of Christians and they gave me a copy of the New Testament, I did not want to read that book. I told them I wasn't going to read that book. I had been told that's an antisemitic book, “I'm Jewish. Leave me alone with this,” but I didn't throw the book out, and I brought it with me away to college, and I read it four years after they gave it to me, and look at how God has used that. And I think of this one friend. I sent him an evangelistic book. He told me later that he threw it against the wall and cursed me out. But it was years later, when some things happened in his life, that, “Well, maybe I need to read this thing.” So let's trust God to use us, even if it means crossing the pain line. Rico, you’ve really helped us a whole lot-

And, Brother, scatter the seed! What we're doing is we're throwing out the seed, but what we learn in Mark 4 is that the seed has a power of its own. So as you give the book, as Jesus described, there is a power that will grow. So I've just got to scatter the seed and leave the results to God.

Great. Well, Rico, it's great to see you again. I'm sorry to bring this to an end because I love chatting with you, but we are going to bring it to an end. Let me say to our listeners, thank you for listening. Thank you for checking out the resources we have available at our now award-winning website, cslewisinstitute.org. Check out Christianity Explored’s resources. Rico, thanks so much for the time together.

God bless, and Happy Christmas, everyone, and I'll be praying you take the opportunity. Please pray that I'll do the same on my end.

Great.

Brought to you by the C.S. Lewis Institute and the Questions That Matter Podcast with Randy Newman.